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Thread: I really hate jazz

  1. #16
    Senior Member Torkelburger's Avatar
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    ^^^^Amen to that! Love Young. And Rouse is my favorite sax player of all time. No one ever mentions him in their list of "greats". Ever. Fans nor critics. He's always been my favorite. Glad to know I'm not alone. He was nothing groundbreaking, I know; but he knew his role. He was just so solid and complemented Monk so well. A better fit for Monk, IMO.

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Red Terror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gargamel View Post
    For a long time, I've regretted my lack of jazz knowledge. But here's the problem: jazz doesn't do anything for me. I can somehow relate with almost any other popular music genre. I really love some jazz versions of Gershwin songs, but that's it. Jazz carries for me the technical finesse of classical music, minus the wow-factor. It doesn't take much more than Schumann or Mahler to move me. At other times, I find that Carter/Babbitt/Boulez can satisfy all my extasies in terms of adrenaline. (Sorry, Cecil Taylor.) But I really believe jazz has a lot to give me, especially in playing some instruments. (I play guitar and some piano.)

    Suggest your music picks, which can whet my appreciation for jazz. Note: No drowsy, relaxing music, pls.
    If you like Carter, Babbitt, and Boulez, you might want to explore Anthony Braxton, Wadada Leo Smith, Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, Miles Davis (electric period). There's much to explore.

    Here's a 2020 recording that has become one of my favorites recently (click on link):

    Paal Nilssen-Love (Large Unit Fendika) - [2020] EthioBraz
    Last edited by Red Terror; May-06-2021 at 19:21.

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  5. #18
    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torkelburger View Post
    ^^^^Amen to that! Love Young. And Rouse is my favorite sax player of all time. No one ever mentions him in their list of "greats". Ever. Fans nor critics. He's always been my favorite. Glad to know I'm not alone. He was nothing groundbreaking, I know; but he knew his role. He was just so solid and complemented Monk so well. A better fit for Monk, IMO.
    Yeah, it's always bothered me that Charlie Rouse is often overlooked, but he was with Monk the longest. Johnny Griffin at the Five Spot was pretty good too. Really all the sax player with Monk sounded good.

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  7. #19
    Senior Member regenmusic's Avatar
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    I feel the same way about a lot of jazz. I'm grateful that I got classical training, then turned on to experimental music, synthesizer artists, and art rock, instead of learning how to play all the different types of chords and progressions (much of which has come from jazz). I had to write music with coming up with my own chord changes and not follow formulas. When I listen to a lot of these instructional music theory videos on youtube, I'm impressed by how nice the chord progressions sound, but then I realize that almost everyone using them is not writing innovative or "serious music" and in many ways is sounding the same. The battle is between writing nice sounding music that doesn't really move music forward and writing nice sounding music that moves music forward but maybe even you yourself is isolated from because it's not convenient to get into that space. This is really the story of "classical music" today and why so many people would chose other musics because of it.

    A lot more could be written about this, and maybe it's for the Music Theory section here.

  8. #20
    Senior Member norman bates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regenmusic View Post
    I had to write music with coming up with my own chord changes and not follow formulas.
    you were probably using formulas used by someone else, only without knowing it, and maybe struggling a lot more. Also, learning harmony in depth that also means clearly learning common progressions and substitutions and things used by many musicians (that I guess what classical musicians who are interested in music learn too, like with counterpoint, sonata form and stuff like that) doesn't certainly exclude the possibility
    of developing an original voice... which is actually what a lot of jazz musicians have.

    That said, about this thread... I don't get what's the point of making random recommendations onestly. I mean knowing at least what Gargamel likes (artists, albums, genres, subgenres), what jazz he has listened to, if there's at least something that he appreciated would make it possible to know what we are talking about. Like this, it could just ending with everyone putting his favorites, which it doesn't seem to me it would help a lot onestly.
    Last edited by norman bates; May-06-2021 at 22:54.
    What time is the next swan?

  9. #21
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    Well, why the heck not norman bates? By acknowledging my jazz aversion, here's hoping the cure will be found. I suppose it's hard to relate someone whose preferences you don't know. 15 years ago, in my late teens, I explored the standard classical repertoire from Mozart to Mahler and Strauss. After overcoming my initial nausea towards modern music, there was a period of 5 years where I would listen to nothing but Schoenberg, Berg, Carter, Sessions, Reger, Hindemith, Babbitt and even Stravinsky. I find all of this stuff really sings. The last few years I gave myself out to less dense stuff - every opus by Haydn, Cherubini and Beethoven's piano music, so we're pretty far away from jazz. Oh yeah, and Poulenc's piano music, great stuff!

    Quote Originally Posted by pianozach View Post
    Rhapsody in Blue is Classical Jazz Fusion genre-wise. And certainly not sleepy.
    Seriously, dude? As hinted by my original post, I know most Gershwin melodies by heart. I listened for a year or two almost nothing but Gershwin, Bernstein (Candide!), Sondheim and Rodgers. I'll take anything by these composers, including jazz and big band versions, but otherwise I can't stand much big band music. I wager it's the "musicals spirit" that you won't find frequently elsewhere in jazz.

    Anyways, thanks for all the suggestions! I think I was especially interested by the Earl Hines Quintet (Fatha Blows Best) and Clifford Brown and Joe Henderson (Canyon Lady). When I was younger I gave Coltrane, Parker and Monk a few spins but never found anywhere near being hooked. And it never occurred to me to explore latin jazz, or that there exists latin jazz which is weird, considering how much I've been into spanish classical music.
    Last edited by Gargamel; May-07-2021 at 00:29.

  10. #22
    Senior Member regenmusic's Avatar
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    I respect and admire Jazz artists, but that's like saying I respect and admire Baroque artists. I don't pretend Baroque is an open ended form any more than I pretend Jazz is. Stop pretending.

  11. #23
    Senior Member starthrower's Avatar
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    If you want weird, eccentric and beautiful latin jazz listen to Hermeto Pascoal. I recommend starting with Slaves Mass.

    Egberto Gismonti is another superb Brazilian composer, guitarist, pianist who has recorded many excellent albums for ECM.
    Last edited by starthrower; May-07-2021 at 01:11.
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  13. #24
    Senior Member Simon Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skakner View Post
    Jazz has so many subgenres.
    Exactly!

    So many subgenres, and some of them sound nothing like many of the others.

    The ECM label has its own ethos, that I tend to call "chamber jazz", but that term has a different connotation among jazz circles. But much of the releases on ECM have quite a bit of European classical influences, but the musicians are improvising them. Much of the ECM releases are not like typical jazz, format: head>solo>head>solo, etc., where the rest of the musicians are just playing the chords behind the soloist.

    M-Base is a style that is a bit funky, yet is played in pretty complex time signatures. Artists such as: Steve Coleman, Andrew Milne, Greg Osby, Vihay Ivar, Ravi Coltrane, and more.

    Fusion, began in the 70's, still going strong today. Known for the extremely high level of chops. Maybe the most structured of all subgenres. Usually very fiery and intense. In the past, it was: Mahavishnu Orchestra, Return to Forever, Brand X, Allan Holdsworth, Bruford, and others. Recently, it's been: Alex Machacek, McGill/Manring/Stevens, Forgas Band Phenomena, Spaced Out, and many more.








    Last edited by Simon Moon; May-07-2021 at 01:22.
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  15. #25
    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gargamel View Post
    Seriously, dude? As hinted by my original post, I know most Gershwin melodies by heart. I listened for a year or two almost nothing but Gershwin, Bernstein (Candide!), Sondheim and Rodgers. I'll take anything by these composers, including jazz and big band versions, but otherwise I can't stand much big band music. I wager it's the "musicals spirit" that you won't find frequently elsewhere in jazz.c.
    You might like the Bethlehem Records jazz version of Porgy & Bess

    Bethlehem Records jazz version of Porgy & Bess mel torme.jpg

    Porgy and Bess
    Duke Ellington (Conductor), Russ Garcia (Conductor), Bethlehem Orchestra (Orchestra), Mel Torme (Performer), Frances Fey (Performer), Betty Roche (Performer), Johnny Hartman (Performer), George Kirby (Performer), Sallie Blair

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  17. #26
    Senior Member Skakner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon View Post
    The ECM label has its own ethos, that I tend to call "chamber jazz", but that term has a different connotation among jazz circles. But much of the releases on ECM have quite a bit of European classical influences, but the musicians are improvising them. Much of the ECM releases are not like typical jazz, format: head>solo>head>solo, etc., where the rest of the musicians are just playing the chords behind the soloist.
    Nicely put!
    Manfred Eicher's creation, ECM, is a whole musical universe with exceptional musicians. Metheny, Garbarek, Stenson, Bjornstad, Rydpal, Stanko, Paul Bley, to name but a few. And above all, the legendary Keith Jarrett whose solo albums with ECM redefined the improvisation and created a unique genre, dare to say, still unparalleled.
    Nevertheless, ECM sound wouldn't match Gargamel's ears.

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  19. #27
    Senior Member norman bates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gargamel View Post
    Well, why the heck not norman bates? By acknowledging my jazz aversion, here's hoping the cure will be found. I suppose it's hard to relate someone whose preferences you don't know. 15 years ago, in my late teens, I explored the standard classical repertoire from Mozart to Mahler and Strauss. After overcoming my initial nausea towards modern music, there was a period of 5 years where I would listen to nothing but Schoenberg, Berg, Carter, Sessions, Reger, Hindemith, Babbitt and even Stravinsky. I find all of this stuff really sings. The last few years I gave myself out to less dense stuff - every opus by Haydn, Cherubini and Beethoven's piano music, so we're pretty far away from jazz. Oh yeah, and Poulenc's piano music, great stuff!
    if you're into that kind of avantgarde, you should try with more modern jazz.

    Andrew Hill
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BgUS0Z8HBU

    Eric Dolphy
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tnPkQufnZY

    Miles Davis (second quintet and electric period)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XolY-Bm0QL8

    Booker Little
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLJnQviwt70

    Sun Ra
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlqFrukUA0E

    Grachan Moncur
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oT5ZbigaDk

    Anthony Braxton
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2Bp-2fiI1I

    Tim Berne
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LPqVHW_ytI

    Paul Bley
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRwJr3yHbds

    to mention just a few
    Last edited by norman bates; May-07-2021 at 09:08.
    What time is the next swan?

  20. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by norman bates View Post
    I don't know about avant-garde, I have a short attention span these days. The avant-garde classical works I listen to are mostly works I'm already familiar with.

  21. #29
    Senior Member starthrower's Avatar
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    Using blanket labels like avant garde is not very productive. All of these artists have their own musical identities. What is the point of pretending to explore jazz but using the excuse of a short attention span? If you hear the sound of Eric Dolphy you will never forget it. You don't need to concentrate for hours. Other than his Blue Note album, Out To Lunch, his music is not very far out.
    Last edited by starthrower; May-07-2021 at 14:13.
    “Music makes you feel feelings. Words make you think thoughts. But a song can make you feel a thought.”

    - Yip Harburg

  22. #30
    Senior Member Bwv 1080's Avatar
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    What about this? Its so smoooth


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