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Thread: Was Beethoven religious?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Amadea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    Yes, his personal beliefs, which manifested in an interesting way both in his life and work (Op.123, 125, 132)
    The personal beliefs of Beethoven are, in my opinion, quite complex. I think he definitevely believed in God, whim which he had a tormented relashionship. In his letters he claimed he cursed Him for his deafness and life, but I believe he had this struggle to reach Him. I do not think he was religious meaning he went to church etc, quite the opposite. It is possible he was anticlerical but christian the way Mozart was, because at the time, after Illuminism and French Revolution, there was not much sympathy for the Church. "Priests are capable of anything..." - Leopold Mozart. Another thing biographers often overlook but it is very important, is that Mozart, J. Haydn and Beethoven all joined freemasonry. It was a trend in Vienna at the time, but most importantly, freemasonry is deeply connected with religious beliefs. There were many many different lodges with different views of religion and life. Mozart and J. Haydn belonged to one lodge that mixed up catholicism, oriental philosophy and religions (eg. Zoroastrianism) and illuministic ideals, anticlericalism etc. There was no occultism or anarchy, unlike in Illuminati and Rosacroce, which M. and H. didn't even know existed. Piero Buscaroli in the book "La Morte di Mozart" states that Mozart went to a party dressed up as an indian saint, we can assume he was interested in oriental philosophies. The relationship of Mozart with freemasonry is deeply discussed in Solomon's biography. I do not know much about Beethoven's lodge though, but I've read he joined in his youth because of his revolutionary ideals, and then progressively detached. It is important though, because it gives us an idea of what he could possibly think of the Church, meaning he didn't like it. Therefore, it is possible he wasn't "religious" in they way you'd expect a religious person to be. I'd suggest you Beethoven's letters, his own thoughts written in books for friends and posterity, and also the Solomon's biography which is famous as much as the Mozart one but I didn't read yet.

  2. #17
    Senior Member Barbebleu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    Because Gregorian modes were fundamental in Beethoven's religious expressions, and Michael Haydn was one his models? What other thread is there about Michael Haydn's church music on this forum? Show me if there's any.



    So every post that talks about, for example, Beethoven symphonies regardless of the thread topic it belongs in, is a "strategy to promote them"?
    Why not start a thread about Michael Haydn’s church music then it doesn’t need to be shoehorned into a Beethoven thread or any other thread for that matter!
    Last edited by Barbebleu; May-07-2021 at 14:39.
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  3. #18
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    I don't get some people's aversion toward Michael. Even though Joseph always gets mentioned alongside Mozart pretty much everywhere, there's nothing wrong with that? ( Yes, I admit that I do think that the amount of exposure Joseph gets compared to his brother is unfair and irrational. And my personal bias influences what I say on this forum). But you can simply talk about the thread topic, Beethoven's religious views, without caring about whatever I say about Michael. I haven't broken any forum rules.
    I guess Beethoven's views just don't make that hot a topic as Wagner's, for example.
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; May-07-2021 at 19:14.

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  5. #19
    Senior Member Amadea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    But you can simply talk about the thread topic, Beethoven's religious views, without caring about whatever I say about Michael.
    That's actually what I was doing in my post before Barbebleu's post...
    Last edited by Amadea; May-07-2021 at 19:29.

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