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Thread: Brahms and Bruckner - what's the difference?

  1. #76
    Senior Member HenryPenfold's Avatar
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    I think Bruckner may have been slightly taller. He was Austrian, too.

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  3. #77
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreisler jr View Post
    He has some rather Schubertian pieces: The sextets, especially the first (the variations must have been a nod to D 810), the B major trio, the A major piano quartet, a minor string quartet (cf. D 804), even the horn call at the beginning of the 2nd piano concerto echoes Schubert's Great C major.
    +++++++++++++++
    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    the use of the common tone diminished 7th chord ( I -> CTº7 -> I ) in the opening of Op.90 does sound like Brahms' homage to Schubert.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lst1Aex2vcQ&t=6s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ-vroCJvzo&t=12s

  4. #78
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manxfeeder View Post
    Schubert's 9th almost cracks the hour mark.
    Cobra disagrees:
    I. Andante, Allegro Ma Non Troppo (36:05)
    II. Andante con Moto (26:22)
    III. Scherzo, Allegro Vivace (29:00)
    IV. Finale, Allegro Vivace (30:28)

  5. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    Cobra disagrees:
    I. Andante, Allegro Ma Non Troppo (36:05)
    II. Andante con Moto (26:22)
    III. Scherzo, Allegro Vivace (29:00)
    IV. Finale, Allegro Vivace (30:28)
    Holy smokes! I guess we've gone full circle; Cobra has Brucknerized Schubert.

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    I think Furtwängler and Giulini already did that. But at least Furtwängler was rather fast in Bruckner.

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  8. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manxfeeder View Post
    Holy smokes! I guess we've gone full circle; Cobra has Brucknerized Schubert.
    I'm not sure what is worse, Cobras tempi or the comments of this Brahms advocat. Both is really terrible.
    Last edited by Aries; Sep-07-2021 at 15:17.

  9. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aries View Post
    I'm not sure what is worse, Cobras tempi or the comments of this Brahms advocat. Both is really terrible.
    Who is the Brahms advocate you're referring to?

  10. #83
    Senior Member perempe's Avatar
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    High pitch string tremolos (Bruckner).

  11. #84
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreisler jr View Post
    But Brahms was clearly pushed into the rôle of continuing the tradition of Beethoven symphonies.

    He has some rather Schubertian pieces: The sextets, especially the first (the variations must have been a nod to D 810), the B major trio, the A major piano quartet, a minor string quartet (cf. D 804), even the horn call at the beginning of the 2nd piano concerto echoes Schubert's Great C major.

    But I think he was not only different in counterpoint but overall a far more concentrated composer, relying much less on expansive melodies etc. While it can hardly be denied that Brahms took a lot of influences and models for his works from Beethoven and Schubert, he has a distinctive style for me and it seems misleading to listen to Brahms mostly from such a perspective
    You're right of course, but no one seems to emphasize what Brahms has in common with Schubert, so I threw that out to balance the picture.

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    Kreisler K, Bruckner did not compose his symphonies according to a "strict scheme ". Yes, I know , there's that old canard about him supposedly having "composed the same symphony nine times ," but nothing could be farther from the truth .
    Those who claim Bruckner just kept on writing the same symphony nine times have only a superficial familiarity with his music .
    Despite superficial similarities such as beginning each of his symphonies quietly , each one is vastly different form the others in mood, character , structurally and harmonically .
    Bruckner's use of harmony, particularly in his last two symphonies , is far more complex and chromatic than Brahms . In the ninth, he goes beyond even the influence of Wagner to anticipate the music of Schoenberg and Berg to a starling degree !
    Here are some features you can find in individual Bruckner symphonies which are not found in the others . Slow introductions in the first and last movements of the fifth ; a duple meter scherzo in the fourth ( the scherzo in the original is not and is a completely different composition ).
    Use of the harp in the 8th symphony in the adagio and the trio of the scherzo . A fast trio in the scherzo of the 9th rather than a slower tempo in the opening section . And so on .

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  14. #86
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    for small values of "vastly different" you are correct... I never reproduced the old canard you quote, but the differences you mention in your last paragraph are slight and superficial and contradict not at all the claim that Bruckner usually kept to a fairly strict scheme. If having an harp or a 12/8 scherzo instead of 3/4 were the main differences among Bruckner's symphonies, the canard would be pretty much true.

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  16. #87
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    If you can't hear the difference, I have an extended warranty for your car to sell you.

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  18. #88
    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    One difference is that I listen to Brahms often, and never listen to Bruckner.

  19. #89
    Senior Member fluteman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    In my view it's not primarily different techniques that are at issue or that differentiate their styles. First, and most obviously, Brahms mastered all instrumental genres, Bruckner was a narrow specialist. The implications of this for his understanding of instrumentation and orchestration are apparent in the superiority of Brahms's orchestration and his writing for solo instruments. Brahms's fluent harmonic language, especially his use of modal mixture and his extension of Schubert's language in that regard is more interesting to me than Bruckner's. Brahms was a great melodist. Bruckner … wasn't. Brahms was a master of variations. Bruckner … wasn't. Brahms had a thorough command of structure and his music always knows where it's going. Bruckner didn't and his music doesn't. Brahms doesn't tend to engage in long, sequential repetitions of trivial ideas. Bruckner … .

    So, for me, it's not so much about employing different techniques, it's about my appraisal of their relative mastery of every compositional technique I care about.

    In more general terms, making superficially impressive sounding music for large orchestra always struck me as relatively easy and cheap compared to writing good chamber music.
    Not only do I agree completely with all of this, there is good reason to believe Bruckner himself would have too. One thing I'd say in Bruckner's favor is that he seemed to have not only the humility, but also the insight, to understand his limitations.

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  21. #90
    Senior Member Enthusiast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    Cobra disagrees:
    I. Andante, Allegro Ma Non Troppo (36:05)
    II. Andante con Moto (26:22)
    III. Scherzo, Allegro Vivace (29:00)
    IV. Finale, Allegro Vivace (30:28)
    Celibidache in Munich comes in at 58 minutes but Dausgaard (in a performance that sounds very fast) at 59. Menuhin (who sounds very fast indeed) took 48 minutes.

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