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Thread: That music which you just, "no".

  1. #76
    Senior Member Chilham's Avatar
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    I'll check it out later.

  2. #77
    Senior Member Chilham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossyembankment View Post
    thoughts on this performance? try the second movement...

    Delightful.

    I have both Pierre-Laurent Aimard and Maria João Pires, but this is much more to my taste. She's not competing with the orchestra.

    I don't dislike Piano Concertos per se. I just find it wearing when pianists thrash the hell out the keyboard.

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    Senior Member Bulldog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allaroundmusicenthusiast View Post
    I share this sentiment. I think, Bach notwithstanding, baroque music is the worst music ever made in the West. Yes, there are some great and original composers, Monteverdi, Purcell, Rameau, Couperin, and Bach of course (although perhaps my favourite Bach works are not everyone elses, the masses and passions I can do without really, and please no concertos)... And I'm surely forgetting some others. But everything after the end of the 16th century is just so uninspiring in general. For me music really got something back with Mozart and Franz Haydn's late works (especially his last set of quartets). From then on, in my opinion, we've been riding a good wave.
    My view is that there have been good waves in every century.

    By the way, I tend to love baroque trumpet works and Haydn's trumpet concerto - yummy.

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  6. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by allaroundmusicenthusiast View Post
    I share this sentiment. I think, Bach notwithstanding, baroque music is the worst music ever made in the West. Yes, there are some great and original composers, Monteverdi, Purcell, Rameau, Couperin, and Bach of course (although perhaps my favourite Bach works are not everyone elses, the masses and passions I can do without really, and please no concertos)... And I'm surely forgetting some others. But everything after the end of the 16th century is just so uninspiring in general. For me music really got something back with Mozart and Franz Haydn's late works (especially his last set of quartets). From then on, in my opinion, we've been riding a good wave.
    I think it is a bit unfortunate that 150 years are subsumed under the baroque label because Dowland or Monteverdi are rather different from Telemann or Rameau but I'd probably tend to the opposite that during this age the "average" level of European music was extraordinarily high. Sure, there was a lot of "generic" music but we mostly don't listen to this anyway. I'd also say that it is the first "modern music" in a way; of course there are fans of medieval and renaissance music but it has remained quite niche not only compared to Bach and Handel but also to Monteverdi, Schütz and Dowland.

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    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    By the way, I tend to love baroque trumpet works and Haydn's trumpet concerto - yummy.
    I take this to mean "baroque trumpet works and Haydn's trumpet concerto are dog food"

  8. #81
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    I find it interesting that Haydn picked the keyed trumpet for his last concerto and Mozart picked the clarinet for his.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobBrines View Post
    I find it interesting that Haydn picked the keyed trumpet for his last concerto and Mozart picked the clarinet for his.
    Both written for specific artists and occasions, AFAIK. Haydn had not written a concert for quite some time (unless one counts the sinfonia concertante #105) and he could probably guess that it would be his last concerto.
    But Mozart probably could not guess his early demise and might have written another dozen piano concerti had he lived longer. Stadler was a friend and I think Mozart had also plans for a concert (Akademie) together with him, thus the clarinet concert.

    My mother loved the trumpet so we had a bunch of LPs and besides popular fluff and baroque stuff also the Haydn trumpet concerto as well so it must have been one of the earlier classical pieces I encountered. There is nothing wrong with it and it might even be my favorite Haydn concerto.

  10. #83
    Senior Member allaroundmusicenthusiast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreisler jr View Post
    I think it is a bit unfortunate that 150 years are subsumed under the baroque label because Dowland or Monteverdi are rather different from Telemann or Rameau but I'd probably tend to the opposite that during this age the "average" level of European music was extraordinarily high. Sure, there was a lot of "generic" music but we mostly don't listen to this anyway. I'd also say that it is the first "modern music" in a way; of course there are fans of medieval and renaissance music but it has remained quite niche not only compared to Bach and Handel but also to Monteverdi, Schütz and Dowland.
    Schütz, that's one of the composers I forgot about. But I disagree with your general statement. Yes, it's unfortunate that baroque goes from Monteverdi to Bach and every one in between, but while of course there are great exponents of this music, even they wrote formulaic music, it's hard to distinguish composers, especially when it comes to music with several instruments (sonatas, concertos, operas are really just boring, except for Purcell and Monteverdi). And you can say there were always great composers in every period of music, that's just what I was getting at: the average during baroque was at its lowest point ever. I know people think that that's the case for the las 70 years since the end of WW2, or perhaps just from the 70s, but to me, baroque represents most of the things I can't stand in music. And with all of this I mean no disrespect to lovers of baroque, again, I enjoy a lot of baroque music.
    Last edited by allaroundmusicenthusiast; Jul-22-2021 at 19:00.

  11. #84
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobBrines View Post
    I find it interesting that Haydn picked the keyed trumpet for his last concerto and Mozart picked the clarinet for his.
    It's also interesting none of the later concertos of Joseph Haydn surpass this:

    Btw, the cellist guy's hair looks like a wig.

    Also btw, other "parallels" I've seen people talking about are Joseph Haydn's F minor variations for piano and Mozart's F minor fantasies for organ, both of which are the respective composers' late works.

  12. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by allaroundmusicenthusiast View Post
    Schütz, that's one of the composers I forgot about. But I disagree with your general statement. Yes, it's unfortunate that baroque goes from Monteverdi to Bach and every one in between, but while of course there are great exponents of this music, even they wrote formulaic music, it's hard to distinguish composers, especially when it comes to music with several instruments (sonatas, concertos, operas are really just boring, except for Purcell and Monteverdi). And you can say there were always great composers in every period of music, that's just what I was getting at: the average during baroque was at its lowest point ever.
    I don't disagree in that music could be formulaic but this is the case certainly in Viennese classicism as well and also in the 19th century. And I don't think it is such a damning feature if the average level is as high as it was in the baroque era. Even disregarding contested music of the second half of the 20th century, there is lots of music from the gallant/early classical style (1730-60s) and from the late classical/early romanticism (1800-1830s, and virtuoso concertos of mid/late 19th century) that is as formulaic as baroque (only longer and often without the high compositional level). And while I don't know much about it, I bet the average/typical renaissance polyphony is rather formulaic as well.

    And baroque brought us all the main features of later music. Opera is a child of the baroque, there were songs, such as Dowland's that rival Schubert's in personal expression (admittedly that genre waned in between), instrumental and vocal virtuosity was pushed to another level that could then be taken for granted, the concerto was invented and sonata, prelude, concerto were established on their own, removed from the connection with vocal works.

  13. #86
    Senior Member allaroundmusicenthusiast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreisler jr View Post
    I don't disagree in that music could be formulaic but this is the case certainly in Viennese classicism as well and also in the 19th century. And I don't think it is such a damning feature if the average level is as high as it was in the baroque era. Even disregarding contested music of the second half of the 20th century, there is lots of music from the gallant/early classical style (1730-60s) and from the late classical/early romanticism (1800-1830s, and virtuoso concertos of mid/late 19th century) that is as formulaic as baroque (only longer and often without the high compositional level). And while I don't know much about it, I bet the average/typical renaissance polyphony is rather formulaic as well.

    And baroque brought us all the main features of later music. Opera is a child of the baroque, there were songs, such as Dowland's that rival Schubert's in personal expression (admittedly that genre waned in between), instrumental and vocal virtuosity was pushed to another level that could then be taken for granted, the concerto was invented and sonata, prelude, concerto were established on their own, removed from the connection with vocal works.
    All of your second paragraph is true, although I don't agree about Dowland rivaling Schubert, neither about vocal virtuosity, in any case, a certain kind of singing was established. The thing about formulas in your first paragraph, yes it's true, at the end of the most music is formulaic, the question is how much enjoyment do we derive from these formulas. And in my personal opinion, the formulas of the baroque are, to put it succintly, the most boring and unappealing ever. Also, in my first comment I said that music got something back, a certain inspiration and power to inspire, with the late works of FJ Haydn (although Michael was rather good too, and he has some great works), not his earlier pieces which are very boring, most of his symphonies are the same piece over and over following the same structure and only changing the key; and Mozart. These two are not gallant composers.
    Last edited by allaroundmusicenthusiast; Jul-23-2021 at 12:35.

  14. #87
    Senior Member pianozach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by david johnson View Post
    I mostly dislike rap.
    A month or two ago I created a Youtube playlist of the most famous rap artists, generally cueing up the first three tracks of their first albums. I included Kanye, Snoop, Jay-Z, Tupac, Notorious BIG, Tupac, Dr. Dre, and the like.

    It was a very difficult listen. What I gathered from my listen is that melody is superfluous, repetition in the backing is king, they rarely have any skills on an actual musical instrument, and the lyrical content must have as many appearances of the word n*gg*r and ****** and f**ker and Motherf*****r as possible. They seem to love to namecheck themselves frequently, and love to rap about b!tches, and their own sexual expoits.

    Speaking of the repetitious backing bed, it often will include some sort of annoying repeated sound used as a rhythmic component.

    There. I said it.

    Did I miss anything?

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  16. #88
    Senior Member elgars ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianozach View Post
    A month or two ago I created a Youtube playlist of the most famous rap artists, generally cueing up the first three tracks of their first albums. I included Kanye, Snoop, Jay-Z, Tupac, Notorious BIG, Tupac, Dr. Dre, and the like.

    It was a very difficult listen. What I gathered from my listen is that melody is superfluous, repetition in the backing is king, they rarely have any skills on an actual musical instrument, and the lyrical content must have as many appearances of the word n*gg*r and ****** and f**ker and Motherf*****r as possible. They seem to love to namecheck themselves frequently, and love to rap about b!tches, and their own sexual expoits.

    Speaking of the repetitious backing bed, it often will include some sort of annoying repeated sound used as a rhythmic component.

    There. I said it.

    Did I miss anything?
    Not really. I'm in the middle of a black music listening project from the 50s to the early 80s which has only reinforced my opinion that much which passes for black music today is little more than tuneless computer-generated garbage which sounds like it was knocked out in about half an hour by a teenage imbecile.
    '...a violator of his word, a libertine over head and ears in debt and disgrace, a despiser of domestic ties, the companion of gamblers and demireps, a man who has just closed half a century without a single claim on the gratitude of his country or the respect of posterity...' - Leigh Hunt on the Prince Regent (later George IV).

    ὃν οἱ θεοὶ φιλοῦσιν ἀποθνῄσκει νέος [Those whom the gods love die young] - Menander

  17. #89
    Senior Member Azol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianozach View Post
    Did I miss anything?
    You were very thorough in your description, please spare us any further details

  18. #90
    Senior Member mossyembankment's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianozach View Post
    A month or two ago I created a Youtube playlist of the most famous rap artists, generally cueing up the first three tracks of their first albums. I included Kanye, Snoop, Jay-Z, Tupac, Notorious BIG, Tupac, Dr. Dre, and the like.

    It was a very difficult listen. What I gathered from my listen is that melody is superfluous, repetition in the backing is king, they rarely have any skills on an actual musical instrument, and the lyrical content must have as many appearances of the word n*gg*r and ****** and f**ker and Motherf*****r as possible. They seem to love to namecheck themselves frequently, and love to rap about b!tches, and their own sexual expoits.

    Speaking of the repetitious backing bed, it often will include some sort of annoying repeated sound used as a rhythmic component.

    There. I said it.

    Did I miss anything?
    No, it's pretty clear who you are and where you're coming from.

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