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Thread: Is George Szell one of your favorite conductors?

  1. #76
    Senior Member wkasimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fbjim View Post
    How much technical imperfection impacts your enjoyment is really entirely subjective to your tastes as a listener.
    Of course, and no one claims otherwise. There's a reason why some people adore Schnabel's Beethoven, and others can't listen to it for more than 30 seconds.

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    Senior Member Merl's Avatar
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    Oh a thread about Furty and subjective truth. How fascinating.

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    Senior Member Knorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merl View Post
    Oh a thread about Furty and subjective truth. How fascinating.

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    Senior Member Brahmsianhorn's Avatar
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    One thing is for sure, no one else is more deserving of the acclaimed orchestral accompaniment recordings award:

    Beethoven, piano concertos w/Fleisher
    Beethoven, piano concertos w/Gilels
    Beethoven, violin concerto w/Huberman
    Brahms, 1st piano concerto w/Schnabel
    Brahms, 1st piano concerto w/Curzon
    Brahms, 1st & 2nd piano concertos w/Fleisher
    Brahms, 1st & 2nd piano concertos w/Serkin
    Brahms, violin concerto w/Oistrakh
    Brahms, violin concerto w/Morini (live)
    Brahms, violin concerto w/Heifetz (live)
    Brahms, double violin concerto w/Oistrakh & Rostropovich
    Dvorak, cello concerto w/Casals
    Mozart, clarinet concerto w/Marcellus
    Mozart, piano concertos Nos. 19 & 20 w/Serkin
    Mozart, piano concerto Nos. 21-24, 26, 27 w/Casadesus
    R. Strauss, Don Quixote w/Fournier
    R. Strauss, Four last songs w/Schwarzkopf
    Tchaikovsky, 1st piano concerto w/Horowitz (live)
    Last edited by Brahmsianhorn; Jul-22-2021 at 20:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wkasimer View Post
    It's a strawman that deserves to be ignored.
    I don't think so - the implication seems to be that accurate playing, precision, necessarily excludes expressive or passionate presentation....my own long experience tells me this is not so. what is the basis for this implication??

    If you can't play the right notes, in tune, with the proper rhythm, and at a coherent tempo, there's little point to looking past the notes to find "heart and emotion", because the audience isn't going to notice - they're going to hear only the technical flaws.
    Good point....of course, we both know that there can be musical performances that are not technically perfect, but may be very expressive musically, and have great value....also, there may technically perfect renditions that are very routine or boring.

    The point is that playing true to the score does not automatically make a performance routine or boring, also - playing with wild or extreme tempo, dynamic fluctuations does not necessarily reveal some over-riding "truth" or emotion of the score.
    I mean, what is the "truth" of Brahms Symphony #1??

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    Quote Originally Posted by fbjim View Post
    also - von Dohnanyi vs Szell is more fun than another Furtwangler vs Szell (wasn't it Furtwangler vs Toscanini yesterday?) argument
    still sad this got ignored!



    von Dohnanyi's Bartok is so good....

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    Senior Member Brahmsian Colors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heck148 View Post
    [Furtwangler's]......excessive taffy-pulling, distortions are hardly natural sounding....I often find myself asking "WTH is he doing?, why did he do that??"
    An aspect of a number of his interpretations I have found fairly annoying as well.

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    Senior Member Brahmsianhorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heck148 View Post
    I mean, what is the "truth" of Brahms Symphony #1??
    And here we go with the strawman

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    Senior Member wkasimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heck148 View Post
    I don't think so - the implication seems to be that accurate playing, precision, necessarily excludes expressive or passionate presentation....my own long experience tells me this is not so. what is the basis for this implication??
    It's a strawman because it's a non-provable statement that someone wishes to use to argue that technical perfection is antithetical to musical expression.

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    Senior Member SONNET CLV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fbjim View Post
    How much technical imperfection impacts your enjoyment is really entirely subjective to your tastes as a listener.
    And, who knows? Some of us may not like the way Beethoven conducted/interpreted his own symphonies, could we have a chance to hear the performances, after having gained familiarity of the music as produced by some of our favorite conductors and their orchestras.

    One can test this notion out somewhat by blindly comparing recordings of 20th century works conducted by the composers and comparing the renditions with other interpretations. Stravinsky, for example, famously conducted much of his own music. One can compare that to other conductors' productions. Results might prove interesting, even revelatory.

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    Senior Member Brahmsianhorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkasimer View Post
    It's a strawman because it's a non-provable statement that someone wishes to use to argue that technical perfection is antithetical to musical expression.
    That’s not what strawman means. Strawman is when you argue against someone by distorting their argument.

    And if the technical perfection is pursued as an end in itself, particularly if it’s to draw attention to itself so as to impress the audience with the performer’s technical skill, yes it is absolutely antithetical. This is why people will often delineate between performances that use virtuosity merely as an end to impress vs those that use it “in service to the music.” The latter recognizes a deeper meaning in the music to which technique is subservient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Merl View Post
    Oh a thread about Furty and subjective truth. How fascinating.
    " subjective truth" - lol!! Good label...
    The board needed a little revving up...things getting a little stale...
    Last edited by Heck148; Jul-23-2021 at 13:10.

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  17. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    And if the technical perfection is pursued as an end in itself, particularly if it’s to draw attention to itself so as to impress the audience with the performer’s technical skill, yes it is absolutely antithetical. This is why people will often delineate between performances that use virtuosity merely as an end to impress vs those that use it “in service to the music.” The latter recognizes a deeper meaning in the music to which technique is subservient.
    I think your argumentation since long has been tiring in its predictability, and this is of course the reason of some ironic comments from other posters. The fact is, that how much "expression" musicians put in their work is a question of temper and musical aesthetics, and the technical perfection is just the prerequisite for them to be able to apply the degree of expressiveness they want. And a more restrained expression is not by itself inexpressive as you seem to presuppose. In fact, I think very few musicians can be called truly inexpressive in your sense.
    Last edited by premont; Jul-23-2021 at 20:41.

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  19. #89
    Senior Member Brahmsianhorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heck148 View Post
    " subjective truth" - lol!! Good label...
    The board needed a little revving up...things getting a little stale...:-)
    No one said anything here about “subjective truth.” That was your contribution to the discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    No one said anything here about “subjective truth.” That was your contribution to the discussion.
    You have talked about the truth Furty seeks in the music. If this doesn't denote a subjective truth, I don't know what the word truth means, but of course the question: "What is truth" was put already by Pilatus.

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