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Thread: What has surprised you the most on TC?

  1. #451
    Senior Member BachIsBest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanAntone View Post
    I don't think the composers or their music are controversial. The discussions become heated because of either the advocacy of their most ardent fans (re: Williams and Deutscher) or their most dedicated enemies (re: John Cage).
    Funnily enough, considering your opinion on the matter, I seem to recall you are a dedicated enemy of Williams and Deutscher and an ardent fan of Cage.

    It takes two sides two sides to make a controversial TC composer.

  2. #452
    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BachIsBest View Post
    Funnily enough, considering your opinion on the matter, I seem to recall you are a dedicated enemy of Williams and Deutscher and an ardent fan of Cage.

    It takes two sides two sides to make a controversial TC composer.
    I think you have distorted my posting history.

    I have defended Cage against what I consider unfair vitriol.

    In response to a call to re-brand Williams' music as Classical, I have said he wrote some of the greatest film music but his Classical output is not what he is known for. I have also said that I prefer having musical genres remain clearly drawn. There is nothing secondary about film music and no reason to want to call it Classical.

    Re: Deutscher - I think she has attracted attention because she is a teenage girl writing Classical music, what I consider mediocre Classical music. And that the threads were a stalking horse to rehash the traditional vs modern music debate.

    I listen to and love both traditional and modern music. The only kind of music which I don't listen to is what I consider mediocre music.

  3. #453
    Senior Member JTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanAntone View Post
    I think you have distorted my posting history.

    I have defended Cage against what I consider unfair vitriol.

    In response to a call to re-brand Williams' music as Classical, I have said he wrote some of the greatest film music but his Classical output is not what he is known for. I have also said that I prefer having musical genres remain clearly drawn. There is nothing secondary about film music and no reason to want to call it Classical.

    Re: Deutscher - I think she has attracted attention because she is a teenage girl writing Classical music, what I consider mediocre Classical music. And that the threads were a stalking horse to rehash the traditional vs modern music debate.

    I listen to and love both traditional and modern music. The only kind of music which I don't listen to is what I consider mediocre music.
    The only kind of music I don’t listen to is music I don’t enjoy.

  4. #454
    Senior Member Forster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BachIsBest View Post
    How the three most controversial composer on TC are John Cage, Alma Deutscher, and John Williams. I mean, who could have possibly not been surprised by that one!
    I agree.

    But let's be pedantic here. It isn't that the composers themselves are controversial (well, Cage possibly, in the sense that he was aware of the provocative nature of some of his pieces and opinions), but that they generate controversy among fans and detractors.

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  6. #455
    Senior Member BachIsBest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    I agree.

    But let's be pedantic here. It isn't that the composers themselves are controversial (well, Cage possibly, in the sense that he was aware of the provocative nature of some of his pieces and opinions), but that they generate controversy among fans and detractors.
    I'm pretty sure the definition of something being controversial is that it generates controversy!

  7. #456
    Senior Member Forster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BachIsBest View Post
    I'm pretty sure the definition of something being controversial is that it generates controversy!
    I'm pretty sure it is too, but I think it important to distinguish between controversy instigated by the individual, and controversy generated around the individual. AD is not, it seems to me, being controversial, nor is John Williams, so it creates ambiguity to describe them as controversial.

  8. #457
    Senior Member BachIsBest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanAntone View Post
    I think you have distorted my posting history.

    I have defended Cage against what I consider unfair vitriol.

    In response to a call to re-brand Williams' music as Classical, I have said he wrote some of the greatest film music but his Classical output is not what he is known for. I have also said that I prefer having musical genres remain clearly drawn. There is nothing secondary about film music and no reason to want to call it Classical.

    Re: Deutscher - I think she has attracted attention because she is a teenage girl writing Classical music, what I consider mediocre Classical music. And that the threads were a stalking horse to rehash the traditional vs modern music debate.

    I listen to and love both traditional and modern music. The only kind of music which I don't listen to is what I consider mediocre music.
    Fair enough, but don't you think your distorting other's opinions on the matter? Most people on the opposite side of the debates from you have more nuanced opinions than "I love John Williams unequivocally as a composer of classical music".

    Regardless, my perception of the "controversy" surrounding all three composers is that both sides are involved in creating it. If you want more of a blame-game I would say the controversy around the John's has been created more from people who don't like them, whereas I agree that the controversy around Deutscher is a bit of a dog whistle to ignite the traditional vs modern music debate, although I'm willing to accept some legitimately find the music pleasing.

    I mean, personally, I don't really listen to any of them.

  9. #458
    Senior Member BachIsBest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    I'm pretty sure it is too, but I think it important to distinguish between controversy instigated by the individual, and controversy generated around the individual. AD is not, it seems to me, being controversial, nor is John Williams, so it creates ambiguity to describe them as controversial.
    I definitely agree that John Williams has no intention of generating controversy, but I'm not so sure with Deutscher. I think she's old enough to be aware of how some view her and how some will take her comments on modern music.

  10. #459
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    The inability to distinguish between 'imply' and 'infer'.
    Are you implying what I'm inferring here?

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  12. #460
    Senior Member Forster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Are you implying what I'm inferring here?
    I don't know...you've just given me a headache!

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  14. #461
    Senior Member Forster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BachIsBest View Post
    I definitely agree that John Williams has no intention of generating controversy, but I'm not so sure with Deutscher. I think she's old enough to be aware of how some view her and how some will take her comments on modern music.
    That's fine. If we agree on John Williams, we agree that he is not a "controversial composer".

  15. #462
    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BachIsBest View Post
    Fair enough, but don't you think your distorting other's opinions on the matter? Most people on the opposite side of the debates from you have more nuanced opinions than "I love John Williams unequivocally as a composer of classical music".
    The people I confront are not being very nuanced; they are the ones saying Cage is a charlatan or that avant-garde music is not Classical. I haven't started any threads in order to create a controversy, which is the case with most of the threads devoted to Cage, Williams, and now Deutscher.

    Regardless, my perception of the "controversy" surrounding all three composers is that both sides are involved in creating it. If you want more of a blame-game I would say the controversy around the John's has been created more from people who don't like them, whereas I agree that the controversy around Deutscher is a bit of a dog whistle to ignite the traditional vs modern music

    I mean, personally, I don't really listen to any of them.
    I basically agree with you, and despite what you may think, I don't listen to Cage much but will defend him against the worst kind of cliched criticism. As far as John Williams I actually learned something I did not know, i.e. he wrote concert pieces. One of which I expressed a liking for, Escapades, his alto sax concerto based on the music from Catch Me if You Can.

    Deutscher I have only sampled enough to determine it is not for me. She may mature into a composer of merit.

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  17. #463
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    oh yeah...oops. Post above now edited, thanks F.
    I remember learning contractions and possessive cases until I had them in long term memory. So many knowledgeable posters (everywhere) get confused.
    Albert Einstein, "I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music.

  18. #464
    Senior Member Enthusiast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTS View Post
    The only kind of music I don’t listen to is music I don’t enjoy.
    But how do you know until you've given it a good hearing?

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  20. #465
    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    I remember learning contractions and possessive cases until I had them in long term memory. So many knowledgeable posters (everywhere) get confused.
    Posting on TC makes you up your game a bit if at all possible because of the knowledge and intellects here...I'm still an aspiring learner. One thing I have re-learned is to not split infinitives.
    Last edited by mikeh375; Sep-28-2021 at 12:41.

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