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  1. #91
    Senior Member JTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    So the idea of diversity, never mind the clumsy letter, should have no part to play in recruitment at all? Or is music some special field and diversity is okay in others?
    Recruitment should be on the basis of ability. Anything wrong with that?

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    Senior Member Forster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTS View Post
    Recruitment should be on the basis of ability. Anything wrong with that?
    So, taking the most obvious example of "recrutiment by ability alone", the VPO was totally justified in not having any women in its ranks until the recent past (1997)?

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    Yes, diversity should play no part at all in hiring, except "negatively", i.e. nobody should be in principle excluded because of race, gender etc.* (But nobody should be hired MAINLY/ONLY because of race, gender, etc)
    Do you think there should be 3 whites in the US 4x100 relay team because this would reflect the demographical diversity best? Or rather have 4 blacks because the four (or probably rather 10) fastest happen to be black?


    *This may lead to some de facto exclusions. Because of gender differences certain physically very demanding positions will likely have no females if a reasonable prerequisite is 10 pullups or so.

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  5. #94
    Senior Member JTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    So, taking the most obvious example of "recrutiment by ability alone", the VPO was totally justified in not having any women in its ranks until the recent past (1997)?
    Only if they’re no good enough women players in Vienna at the time. Otherwise it was discriminatory. I noticed John Eliot Gardiner conducting an orchestra at the Proms in which the bias was heavily female. Do you think he was being discriminatory against the male sex? Or were the players picked on ability alone? Interesting when somebody forms a women only orchestra or an ethnic minority orchestra no one objects. I’m not saying this is a bad thing at all but it does raise the question of just how far diversity goes
    Last edited by JTS; Sep-27-2021 at 10:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreisler jr View Post
    Yes, diversity should play no part at all in hiring, except "negatively", i.e. nobody should be in principle excluded because of race, gender etc.* (But nobody should be hired MAINLY/ONLY because of race, gender, etc)
    Do you think there should be 3 whites in the US 4x100 relay team because this would reflect the demographical diversity best? Or rather have 4 blacks because the four (or probably rather 10) fastest happen to be black?


    *This may lead to some de facto exclusions. Because of gender differences certain physically very demanding positions will likely have no females if a reasonable prerequisite is 10 pullups or so.
    This is obviously the point with all this diversity dogma. It can be carried to the point where it can be nonsense. When apartheid ended in South Africa there was a requirement of the South African rugby team had a quota of black players. The result was that the standard of the team took a nose dive simply because rugby was a white man’s sport and most of the black community played soccer. This was abandoned for the sake of standards and now things have tended to even themselves out with the black captain of the team. Which is of course a very good thing because sport should be racially inclusive
    Last edited by JTS; Sep-27-2021 at 10:23.

  7. #96
    Senior Member Forster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreisler jr View Post
    Yes, diversity should play no part at all in hiring, except "negatively", i.e. nobody should be in principle excluded because of race, gender etc.*
    Quote Originally Posted by JTS View Post
    Only if they’re no good enough women players in Vienna at the time. Otherwise it was discriminatory.
    Quote Originally Posted by JTS View Post
    Which is of course a very good thing because sport should be racially inclusive
    So, all in all, "diversity" should play some part.

    Quote Originally Posted by JTS View Post
    This is obviously the point with all this diversity dogma.
    Well, I'm sure you can find examples of "diversity dogma". But you can also find examples of intolerance of genuine notions of diversity. Who's to say which?

    I'm quite sure no-one here would actually want women, or ethnic minorities barred from orchestras, but some seem willing to jump on an "anti-woke" band wagon without really giving any thought to the complexities.

    Music seems to me a particularly good example of the difficulty of deciding who should be recruited to an orchestra, because of the challenge of determining who is, actually, a better player. Take, for example, these vacancies:

    https://www.berliner-philharmoniker....ant-positions/

    It's reasonable to assume that the BPO will get more applicants than there are places available, and that several will be suitably qualified - ie, they are excellent players. Now, I don't know what policy is in Germany regarding equal opportunities, or what recruitment policy is at the BPO, but I don't doubt that those responsible for making the selections will be well aware that they need to have taken diversity issues into account at some point in the process in order to ensure that not only have they appointed the best musician, but that their processes and decisions have not inadvertently or deliberately discriminated against applicants who meet one of the relevant characteristics. The LSO isn't recruiting at the mo, but they do have this statement on their website:

    As an equal opportunities employer, the LSO is committed to the equal treatment of all current and prospective employees and does not condone discrimination on the basis of age, disability, sex, sexual orientation, pregnancy and maternity, race or ethnicity, religion or belief, gender identity, or marriage and civil partnership.

    We aspire to have a diverse and inclusive workplace and strongly encourage suitably qualified applicants from a wide range of backgrounds to apply and join the LSO.
    I'm sure the BPO will operate in a similar way. So, is this "diversity dogma"? Or appropriate recruitment policy?
    Last edited by Forster; Sep-27-2021 at 10:55.

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  9. #97
    Senior Member JTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    So, all in all, "diversity" should play some part.



    Well, I'm sure you can find examples of "diversity dogma". But you can also find examples of intolerance of genuine notions of diversity. Who's to say which?

    I'm quite sure no-one here would actually want women, or ethnic minorities barred from orchestras, but some seem willing to jump on an "anti-woke" band wagon without really giving any thought to the complexities.

    Music seems to me a particularly good example of the difficulty of deciding who should be recruited to an orchestra, because of the challenge of determining who is, actually, a better player. Take, for example, these vacancies:

    https://www.berliner-philharmoniker....ant-positions/

    It's reasonable to assume that the BPO will get more applicants than there are places available, and that several will be suitably qualified - ie, they are excellent players. Now, I don't know what policy is in Germany regarding equal opportunities, or what recruitment policy is at the BPO, but I don't doubt that those responsible for making the selections will be well aware that they need to have taken diversity issues into account at some point in the process in order to ensure that not only have they appointed the best musician, but that their processes and decisions have not inadvertently or deliberately discriminated against applicants who meet one of the relevant characteristics. The LSO isn't recruiting at the mo, but they do have this statement on their website:



    I'm sure the BPO will operate in a similar way. So, is this "diversity dogma"? Or appropriate recruitment policy?
    Diversity dogma comes when diversity becomes an end in itself regardless of musicianship.

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  11. #98
    Senior Member eljr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    So, taking the most obvious example of "recrutiment by ability alone", the VPO was totally justified in not having any women in its ranks until the recent past (1997)?
    maybe it is best that all white men be flogged, maybe that would help to atone for how sociaty naturally evolved?
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
    Voltaire

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    Senior Member Forster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eljr View Post
    maybe it is best that all white men be flogged, maybe that would help to atone for how sociaty naturally evolved?
    What on earth has your daft suggestion got to do with my post, and what has society's evolution got to do with the VPO's former policy of not recruiting women to the orchestra?
    Last edited by Forster; Oct-12-2021 at 22:14.

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