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Thread: Is this 20th century music?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Simon Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aries View Post
    It is good 20th century music.


    Why anachronistic? Because it doesn't consist of some random atonal noises?

    Since when does atonal music equate to "random atonal noises"?

    The vast majority of atonal classical music is very structured and non random (except aleatory music has a random element).

    Music is ordered sound. This completely describes atonal music as music. Noise is disordered sound.

    So, atonal classical music is neither random, nor is it noise.
    Last edited by Simon Moon; Oct-20-2021 at 18:50.
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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon View Post
    Since when does atonal music equate to "random atonal noises"?
    Interesting thought, but I did not say that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon
    The vast majority of atonal classical music is very structured and none random (except aleatory music has a random element).
    But total serial pieces also have a random appearance for the listener.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon
    Noise is disordered sound.
    Some atonal music incorporates noises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon
    So, atonal classical music is neither random, nor is it noise.
    That is a too general judgment about atonal music.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Enthusiast's Avatar
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    Anachronistic? Perhaps. But it is worse than that. Whenever it was written it is deeply revolting! The picture you see on the OP's YouTube link gives you a good idea what to expect (it also is nauseating). This is a great example of true and extreme ugliness in 20th century music.

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  6. #19
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aries View Post
    It is good 20th century music.

    Why anachronistic? Because it doesn't consist of some random atonal noises?
    It's not good. It's cheesy dreck. It's anachronistic dreck because it was intentionally composed in a pseudo-baroque style for people who can't tell pseudo-baroque from the real thing. This sort of half-a$$ed forgery is a time-honored practice, as witness the more famous example of the Sicillienne in E-flat, once attributed to one Maria Theresia von Paradis but actually cobbled together by touring violinist Samuel Dushkin. Dushkin picked Paradis because she was a poor school teacher stricken blind in her prime, making for a nice sentimental story exploiting sympathy for the disabled in service of the almighty buck. Dushkin succeeded despite the obvious Rachmaninoff influence in a supposedly late-18thc work. The author of this Ave Maria probably saw how much Dushkin made with his forgery and figured he'd give it a go.
    Last edited by EdwardBast; Oct-22-2021 at 13:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    It's not good. It's cheesy dreck. It's anachronistic dreck because it was intentionally composed in a pseudo-baroque style for people who can't tell pseudo-baroque from the real thing.
    I don't understand the problem. It is not a bad thing to build on something of the past. It is also not a bad thing to deviate from the example. And it is also not a bad thing to write music for people without expert knowledge.

    This Ave Maria was at least recorded 18 times, so a lot of people think it is worth. And I think that too.

    And the method to take over elements of a past era like the Baroque but to shape it in a modern way, is actually very interessting. Maybe you can combine the best elements of multiple eras to make something even better.

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast
    This sort of half-a$$ed forgery is a time-honored practice, as witness the more famous example of the Sicillienne in E-flat, once attributed to one Maria Theresia von Paradis but actually cobbled together by touring violinist Samuel Dushkin. Dushkin picked Paradis because she was a poor school teacher stricken blind in her prime, making for a nice sentimental story exploiting sympathy for the disabled in service of the almighty buck. Dushkin succeeded despite the obvious Rachmaninoff influence in a supposedly late-18thc work. The author of this Ave Maria probably saw how much Dushkin made with his forgery and figured he'd give it a go.
    Vavilov didn't used the name of someone else.

    Bachs Toccata and Fugue in D minor was maybe not written by him. That doesn't make it worse of a work.
    Last edited by Aries; Oct-22-2021 at 14:07.

  9. #21
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aries View Post
    And the method to take over elements of a past era like the Baroque but to shape it in a modern way, is actually very interessting.
    Vavilov didn't used the name of someone else.
    It can be interesting, as when Alfred Schnittke does it in the scherzo of his Third Symphony:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8l22h34UBQ

    The Ave Maria is to music as Cheez-Whiz is to cheese.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aries View Post
    Bachs Toccata and Fugue in D minor was maybe not written by him. That doesn't make it worse of a work.
    If it's Bach do you think it's good Bach?
    Last edited by EdwardBast; Oct-22-2021 at 15:53.

    Your frogs make me shudder with intolerable loathing and I shall be miserable for the rest of my life remembering them.
    — Mikhail Bulgakov, The Fatal Eggs

    When a true genius appears on the earth, you may know him by this sign, that all of the dunces are in confederacy against him.
    — Jonathan Swift

  10. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    It can be interesting, as when Alfred Schnittke does it in the scherzo of his Third Symphony:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8l22h34UBQ
    Yes, interesting.

    But something else is interesting about the Vavilov Ave Maria. Seems like it gets a lot of hate, but it os also recorded rather often, and it has something very attractive for some people. What is the reason? I think it as something to do with the "pseudo" in "pseudo-baroque". What is different to baroque makes it probably so attractive for some and at the same is time the reason why others hate it. But if it were just uninteresting, it would not be recorded.

    It reminds me of "pseudo-renaissance" and "pseudo-medival" music. I like such instrumental pieces, but it is somewhat difficult to find non-vocal music of the actual middle age and renaissance and I have no unrestricted preference for it compared to the new pseudo-old music (here an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPsnVHbMs5U).

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast
    The Ave Maria is to music as Cheez-Whiz is to cheese.
    I don't know Cheez-Whiz and I'm also not the biggest fan of cheese.

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast
    If it's Bach do you think it's good Bach?
    Yes, good Bach, but what is bad Bach? He was very consistent.

    I think it is one of the best organ pieces.

  11. #23
    Senior Member pianozach's Avatar
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    My superficial research yields the following:

    Georgs Brinums' arrangement of G. Cassini's Ave Maria is likely written by Russian guitarist and composer Vladimir Vavilov in 1972 or earlier, at which point he claimed that the composer was "anonymous". It was later mistakenly attributed to the sixteenth-century composer Cassini by others.

    But the piece was unknown before the 1970s, likely because this Ave Maria arguably wasn’t composed until then.

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