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Thread: Is this 20th century music?

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    Default Is this 20th century music?

    When was this version of Ave Maria composed?


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    Senior Member mbhaub's Avatar
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    I have to remove my ill-considered post. I had the wrong Ave Maria. Will have to do further reading. There's a great disk of nothing but different Ave Maria settings (a work dear to my heart). This one isn't among them, although it is quite beautiful.

    From Wikipedia:
    Vavilov wrote this aria with the ascription "Anonymous", and it was later mis-attributed to Giulio Caccini. It is often performed, notably by Inessa Galante, Andrea Bocelli, Sumi Jo and Charlotte Church, inter alia.

    Apparently Brinums was the arranger, Vavilov the composer. So maybe I was right the first post.
    Last edited by mbhaub; Oct-20-2021 at 01:07.
    "It is surprising how easily one can become used to bad music" - F. Mendelssohn

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbhaub View Post
    Written in 1970 that makes it 20th c. Whether or not it is anachronistic is another matter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ave_Maria_(Vavilov)
    What does it have to do with G. Cacini? He appears to be a person that lived centuries before.

    We are having another Adagio in G minor issue here, huh?

    Why the name of G.Cacini for this music?
    Last edited by atsizat; Oct-20-2021 at 00:20.

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    I don't know why the name of G. Cacini is used for this music but from the style of the music, it was already impossible for music like this to be composed in 16th century. Yeah...

    It could be composed in either 19th century or 20th century from the style of music. Lol.
    Last edited by atsizat; Oct-20-2021 at 00:33.

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    It is good 20th century music.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbhaub View Post
    Whether or not it is anachronistic is another matter.
    Why anachronistic? Because it doesn't consist of some random atonal noises?

    I think it is different to 19th century music. And I like it more than to Schuberts Ave Maria for example. I think it is more personal, approachable and intim and less contrived (but it is difficult to describe). It is something I notice a lot in newer compositions of tonal composers, especially russians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aries View Post
    It is good 20th century music.


    Why anachronistic? Because it doesn't consist of some random atonal noises?

    I think it is different to 19th century music. And I like it more than to Schuberts Ave Maria for example. I think it is more personal, approachable and intim and less contrived (but it is difficult to describe). It is something I notice a lot in newer compositions of tonal composers, especially russians.
    Why is the name of G. Cacini used in this music? A name of a composer who lived centuries before.

    Is this music dedicated to him or something?
    Last edited by atsizat; Oct-20-2021 at 00:46.

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    Senior Member violadude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aries View Post


    Why anachronistic? Because it doesn't consist of some random atonal noises?
    I feel the need to chime in to say that tonal/tonal adjacent music =/= anachronistic.

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    How about my question above?
    Last edited by atsizat; Oct-20-2021 at 11:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atsizat View Post
    Why is the name of G. Cacini used in this music? A name of a composer who lived centuries before.

    Is this music dedicated to him or something?
    No, it is a mistake. Vavilov did not use his name for the work, and later other people made a wrong ascription.

    Quote Originally Posted by violadude View Post
    I feel the need to chime in to say that tonal/tonal adjacent music =/= anachronistic.
    This statement confuses me. Tonal/tonal? Adjacent? =/=?

    Tonal music isn't anachronistic. Thats my opinion.

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    Senior Member violadude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aries View Post


    This statement confuses me. Tonal/tonal? Adjacent? =/=?

    Tonal music isn't anachronistic. Thats my opinion.
    My point is that there exists music that is anachronistic, and then there is tonal music that does not sound anachronistic. There is not only anachronistic tonal music or atonal music.

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    Quote Originally Posted by violadude View Post
    My point is that there exists music that is anachronistic, and then there is tonal music that does not sound anachronistic. There is not only anachronistic tonal music or atonal music.
    anachronistic music is postmodern, anyway

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    Checking the internet, the more recent orchestral re-arranger of the piece, used in the youtube-clip above, Georgs Brīnums seems known for almost only this, but he also plays the viola in Latvia, where the singer is from.
    Maybe they knew each other, or got in contact due to her concerts or the recording project.

    Vladimir Vavilov is much better documented and was the primary arranger of the piece, in 1970, as already mentioned here, cf. earlier Wiki referred to above, and
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladim...lov_(composer)

    He changed his used Renaissance and Baroque sources a lot in his re-workings, as described in Wiki, but apparently it's still disputed in Wiki, whether there actually is an original Caccini source; probably not.
    Last edited by joen_cph; Oct-20-2021 at 18:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fbjim View Post
    anachronistic music is postmodern, anyway
    The usage of the word postmodern refutes the concept of modernism.

    If there is something newer than so called "modern music" than "modern music" isn't really modern anymore. But that it is still called "modern" shows that a failed concept is behind it. The so called modern music is intended to be modern but isn't. The flow of history has another destination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fbjim View Post
    anachronistic music is postmodern, anyway
    Depends on the context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by violadude View Post
    Depends on the context.
    well the context will never be the period the art is intending to evoke, but i'm halfway joking with that statement. deliberate attempts to play with context does strike me as postmodern, though.

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