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Thread: Mature criticism

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    Default Mature criticism

    Unfortunately there seem to be many people being overly critical and argumentative on this site.
    Is there anything we can do about that?
    I sometimes wonder whether to bother posting anything if people are just going to argue.
    Last edited by djpeters; Jun-13-2010 at 01:09.

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    Senior Member Air's Avatar
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    I don't understand either why the religious debates are allowed to continue. IMHO, threads with topics like these should be locked.
    "Summit or death, either way, I win" ~R. Schumann

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    Moderator Huilunsoittaja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djpeters View Post
    Unfortunately there seem to be many people being overly critical and argumentative on this site.
    Is there anything we can do about that?
    I sometimes wonder whether to bother posting anything if people are just going to argue.
    I agree. Sometimes I feel that it would be better just to not share one's opinion, because it's very likely someone might attack it. Pretentious Elitists...

    Personally, I want to be open-minded, and if someone says something I don't agree with, I just let it go, or just not get bitter.
    "Music is an art, and art is forever. Music should not succumb to fashion, which is passing and forgotten."
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    Senior Member StlukesguildOhio's Avatar
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    On the other hand debate forces the individual to think about his or her opinions and why he or she believes a given way. In theory it opens the individual up to opposing points of view that may lead him or her to question... rethink... or even ultimately reject an initial position. Artists and art lovers have long held heated debate... in the salons, theaters, orchestra halls, cafes, pubs, bars, and of course in the press. What is the alternative: "I like Mozart" "Golly gee! I do too!" "Thumbs up!" ??? I'd much rather get slammed by Some Guy and be forced into really thinking about my position... my likes and dislikes... and even be exposed to some possibilities I might have previously rejected... than to engage in a dialog of Teetotaling.
    Last edited by StlukesguildOhio; Jun-13-2010 at 17:13.

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    Senior Member Earthling's Avatar
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    Ditto.

    "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger." ~ Nietzsche
    At last to guess, instead of always knowing. To be able to say “ah” and “oh” and “hey” instead of “yea” and “amen. ” ~ Wings of Desire

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    Senior Member Weston's Avatar
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    On reflection it seems the more esoteric the taste the angrier the champion of it. It can be lonely and frustrating to be outnumbered. One feels surrounded by Neanderthals. I have experienced this myself in the "real" world simply by virtue of liking classical -- even normal classical. So I try to be tolerant and have never felt personally attacked.

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    Senior Member sospiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston View Post
    On reflection it seems the more esoteric the taste the angrier the champion of it. It can be lonely and frustrating to be outnumbered. One feels surrounded by Neanderthals. I have experienced this myself in the "real" world simply by virtue of liking classical -- even normal classical. So I try to be tolerant and have never felt personally attacked.
    At work I rarely mention either of my twin passions of F1 & opera. You'd think it was something which only crazy people do... then again.
    Ann

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    Quote Originally Posted by djpeters View Post
    Unfortunately there seem to be many people being overly critical and argumentative on this site.
    Is there anything we can do about that?
    I sometimes wonder whether to bother posting anything if people are just going to argue.

    Hi DJ,

    Is the issue grounded in critique, or the lack of charity and kindness from others?

    Some above, value critique, although there is no doubt ...that the way it is delivered ... is artless.

    There are some music forum boards, where the cardinal rule is, that posters do not slander anyone else's tastes with the threat of Moderator intervention hanging over if they do.

    However that is a decision for the quiet Moderators of this board, who let us all run amok on the playground

    I like the the Solo and Chamber Music section, i.e. the string quartets thread - everyone is very cool about it an there is nothing (yet) of the puerile stuff we see on the 'cult of the favourite composer' threads. We don't argue mosh about our microglissandi and turn pizzicati into verbal fireworks. When man chooses not to believe in God, he doesn't believe in nothing: he believes in anything. And on a level of latency, this includes, the cult of the personality, whether it be a musical one or other....one's favourite composer, to whose music one can have an emotional tie which is twinned with the fervour of religion.

    Otherwise, I guess, 'ignoring' posts and threads is one option? Well I suppose whilst I'm constantly guessing, I'd guess that most of the posters aren't actually mean people. They just believe vehemently in the relativism of their own tastes, to the exclusion of others. I guess we all are, even if sometimes we could refine our communication skills, and instead of knee-jerking...extend one another a little grace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sospiro View Post
    At work I rarely mention either of my twin passions of F1 & opera. You'd think it was something which only crazy people do... then again.
    As soon as I even mention the word opera to people I know I see them looking at me in a slightly wary way as though they expect me to froth at the mouth and run amok. So like you I've learned to shut up.

    But I do appreciate that others on this forum don't share my tastes (eg the occasional Regie production, Handel, Jonas Kaufmann) so I don't mind a bit of debate, as long as it doesn't get too personal.
    Natalie

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    Senior Member Argus's Avatar
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    My advice is to stay away from topics of contention if you dislike debate.

    Here's a list of known debate hotspots:

    Religion
    Mozart
    Schoenberg
    Religion
    John Cage
    What is art?
    Contemporary Classical
    Religion
    Metal music
    Andre Rieu
    Religion

    Also, if you don't like criticism don't put forward any music in the Composers section as Aramis will immediately crush any confidence you have in your own compositional abilities.

    But apart from all that this place is quite agreable. I'd hate it if it was too saccharine.

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    Assistant Administrator Chi_townPhilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argus View Post

    Religion
    Mozart
    Schoenberg
    Religion
    John Cage
    What is art?
    Contemporary Classical
    Religion
    Metal music
    Andre Rieu
    Religion
    Nice list. To this, I'd add "Politics," obviously.
    Quote Originally Posted by djpeters View Post
    Unfortunately, there seem to be many people being overly critical and argumentative on this site.
    Appreciate the feedback- absolutely. Without minimizing your contribution, keep in mind that virtually a week ago, someone said this:
    Quote Originally Posted by HillTroll72 View Post
    Two forums that interest me, one centered on recordings, the other featuring composers, also seem to be void of debates; not just 'sprited' debates, but any debates or civilized arguments.
    At the time of this writing, we do have one 'lively' thread that's become a 'catch-can' for Philosophical/Religious argumentation. Still, as long as we can discuss without getting insulting, abusive, personal, or inordinately repetitious, discussions of even obvious 'hot-button' topics will continue.

    Of course, if a post 'crosses the line' into abuse- that's what the "Report Post" icon (the red-triangle-thing) is for.

    Alternatively, if the discussion looks 'too-hot' for one's taste, one always has the option of skipping over the thread! I would not be unsympathetic to that choice, because I sometimes made that choice, back in my "Member" days.

    'course now, I'm a staffer- so I have to read as much as possible, like-it-or-not!
    The hardest knife ill us'd doth lose his edge. Shakespeare- Sonnet 95

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    Quote Originally Posted by djpeters View Post
    Unfortunately there seem to be many people being overly critical and argumentative on this site.
    Is there anything we can do about that?
    I sometimes wonder whether to bother posting anything if people are just going to argue.
    Argumentative ? I feel it's the other way around.
    Too many people posting stuff like "this is so great" or "this is so bad". Totally worthless opinions without arguments.

    But maybe it's just me, and I'm quite new here...

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    Assistant Administrator Chi_townPhilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janne View Post
    Too many people posting stuff like "this is so great" or "this is so bad".
    I have one possible explanation for this...

    After a certain time, some of our members get a reputation as "enthusiast-specialist" for certain composers, genres and/or ouvres. Examples that spring to my mind are- Elgarian on Elgar, Tapkaara on Sibelius, jhar26 on R. Strauss, the 'gem-collection' () on Schubert & Schumann. I know I'm leaving out a lot.

    Anyway, when these members comment on their areas of special enthusiasm, their opinions- if not exactly taken on faith- carry a great deal of weight to me, even absent further explanation. Of course, if seeking increased focus, one can always post something like "why do you think that's so great?" or "what exactly don't you like about that?" and it's likely that we can stimulate additional contributions, as well as get the detail that's being sought...
    The hardest knife ill us'd doth lose his edge. Shakespeare- Sonnet 95

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    Senior Member TresPicos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djpeters View Post
    Unfortunately there seem to be many people being overly critical and argumentative on this site.
    Is there anything we can do about that?
    I sometimes wonder whether to bother posting anything if people are just going to argue.
    No, you don't.



    Actually, I both disagree and agree with you.

    Overly argumentative? Not really. I think the debate climate here on TalkClassical is usually argumentative enough to be interesting but not too argumentative to be overly unpleasant. That said, some subjects (mentioned by Argus) do tend to overheat...

    Overly critical? Yes, I think so. The seemingly mandatory destructive criticism in the Composers section was a good example. Or when you start a perfectly fine thread only to see it go down the drain because some other guy just have to tell you what an idiot you were to start it.

    But in the end, this is an anonymous discussion forum on the Internet. If you let yourself be scared off just because someone is rude, you'll miss out on all the good stuff.

    And when the going gets tough, there's always...



    ... sarcasm.

  15. #15
    DrMike
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    Quote Originally Posted by TresPicos View Post
    And when the going gets tough, there's always...



    ... sarcasm.
    No there isn't!

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