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Composers and religion. . .

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#1 · (Edited)
I thought I'd make a parallel discussion to this thread.

Composers relationship with religion or faith is not always the same. Just like us, they have different views on faith (or lack of it).

I'm just aiming for this thread to focus on composers and their faith (or no faith). & also things like the reasons why they composed religious music (or something approximating it - it does not have to be choral).

Some where deeply religious, Bruckner being a good example. So they wrote this type of music 'from the heart.' Gounod initially trained to be a priest, but changed his mind to be a composer. He wrote as many masses as he did operas (over a dozen, I think). Frank Martin wrote his Mass for Double Choir purely as an offering to God. Its first public performance was long after it was written. It was intended as a private work. Now it is a 20th century classic.

Some did it just to fulfil commissions and basically earn money. So it was just a job like any other. But it could produce great music. Like the masses Haydn was commissioned to do by the Eszterhazy family, one a year for the name day of the Prince's wife.

Some for love, I know Schubert composed his first mass (a delightful work) for a soprano to sing with whom he may have been in love. About composing one of the most famous setting of the Ave Maria, Schubert said that he was not particularly religious, but when he composed that piece he was overcome by some sort of deep devotion which was unusual for him.

Some for people they didn't know. Faure composed his requiem, which is still very popular and used in funeral services today, for a parishioner whom he hardly knew. Faure's father died around the same time, but he denied that he had that in mind when he composed this work.

Some wrote music as a political statement or a comment on the times they where living. Kodaly wrote his Missa Brevis (Mass in Time of War) during World War II, when he was involved in underground resistance networks, sheltering Jews from deportation to the death camps.

Some dedicated this type of music to dead friends or colleagues, as Charles Villiers Stanford, who wrote his Requiem for Lord Leighton, a prominent painter of the late 19th century. To do that, Stanford, a staunch Protestant, had to kind of force himself to write a setting of the Latin (Catholic) mass. This is not very well known, but I think a wonderful and inspiring work.

Some non-Christians have written great sacred music which has become part of the classical tradition now. Jewish composers like Bloch and Milhaud wrote sacred services in Hebrew. Bernstein wrote the Chichester Psalms, also in Hebrew (but written for Chichester Cathedral in the UK). Ligeti, who was of Jewish heritage, wrote two of the seminal post-1945 sacred works - the Requiem and Lux Aeterna. Both where used in Stanley Kubrick's film 2001: A Space Odyessy.

Thomas Beverage has composed a work called the Yizkor Requiem, which fuses Christianity and Judaism. it brings together common things in both religions.

Non-believers (atheists) have also written works that are maybe relevant here. Delius' Mass of Life is a good example. I wonder if its to fill some void, to provide something in place of religion (but obviously not religion?). I have recently acquired it on cd but have yet to listen to it.

On the whole I think that religious works are not only about religion, but often about what's going on in the life of the composer at the time. & of course, their overall 'world view,' which is not only about religion, but many other things. Its all connected and often its more about what they're doing than just their beliefs.

So give us your thoughts about these kinds of issues. Maybe your own examples too, relating to religious type works that you like.
 
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#2 ·
I find it interesting that eastern Europe, where religion was suppressed throughout most of the 20th century, has produced some of the most religious post-WW2 composers, such as Pärt, Penderecki, Górecki and Vasks. Perhaps one could further add Gubaidulina and Kancheli, though I'm not as familiar with their work.
 
#17 · (Edited)
YEs well they where kind of like fighting (in a covert way) against Communist ideology, which is of course atheist (or anti-religion). Its interesting too to note that Part, Penderecki, Gorecki all had earlier atonal (or more experimental) periods, but later they ditched that and got into more traditional or tonal approaches. I read that in relation to earlier East European composers in exile, eg. Martinu and Bartok, their increasing focus there on tonality and melody had much to do with what was going on in their lives too, their contexts, and history. But for guys like Part, who retreated for a while to find his voice and studied ancient Christian music, it was also this journey to something going way back, maybe something more human, but certainly at odds with the dehumanising aspects of totalitarian regimes whose focus was not on an individual's spirituality but things like five year plans.

The other thing is that in many countries of East Europe, the churches played a pivotal role in the move towards ending Communism. Meetings where held in the sanctuary of churches, and even the fact that people got together thre to discuss things (even if not too political or dangerous to the regime), it went against things like them having no right of assembly on the streets (public streets, but public in name only, not in practise!).

& for the Russian premieres of Gubaidulina's works in the 1970's and '80's, their religious titles where covered up. Any references to religion where not published. So things like 'Seven Words' was called something like just a nameless chamber piece. Yes, it was even subversive to write a work based on the crucifixion, and this is in recent memory for some people alive today (Gubaidulina is still with us!).

... I remember going to see Verdi's Requiem in concert; the programme notes pointed out the uncertain ending, and linked it to Verdi's own uncertain feelings with regard to religion.....
I feel that uncertainty with other composers too, even those of faith. We often forget that people who have faith can also have doubt. At difficult periods in their lives, they may feel that God has abandoned them. Its not as if faith and doubt are strictly divided. I get that feeling at the end of Bruckner's Mass in E minor quite a bit (the Agnus Dei).

Beethoven didn't attend church ceremonies on his adult life, Beethoven was religious but not on the "original/mainstream ( church+bible way).
Beethoven Saw god in the world and the world in god.
He based his own beliefs of god to his own observations about the world.
Sounds quite a bit like Janacek. When writing his Glagolitic Mass, his focus was on nature and humanity rather than God. Certainly not on dogma. I read he consciously avoided models like Bach which he saw as too connected with irrelevant dogmas of the past. This mass was also connected to celebrating Czech independence and Janacek said it was like a mass for the imaginary wedding of him and his muse, Kamila Stosslova. So it was many things, and probably more related to other things than just religion or God.
 
#3 ·
A very interesting and informative post sid, thanks.

I will add my Haydn two-pence now and say that he was a pretty religious man - and that musicologists now are trying to absorb religious fervor as another fundamental aspect of his aesthetic, in looking to paint a picture of the man beyond the jokes and the Surprise symphony.

About composing one of the most famous setting of the Ave Maria, Schubert said that he was not particularly religious, but when he composed that piece he was overcome by some sort of deep devotion which was unusual for him.
This reminds me of both Haydn and Handel, who said that they felt extremely religious (unusually so) when writing the Creation and Messiah respectively.

In some composers (Pärt for example) I think their religiosity goes well into their secular oeuvre as well, and shape it sometimes to its very roots.

Of course many atheists/agnostics have written religious music too. Verdi's Requiem springs to mind - facetiously labelled his greatest opera, I think he gives a very human interpretation of the text. In some sense I think that the composer will always act as interpreter to the text, and so his viewpoint will always heavily influence the music. I remember going to see Verdi's Requiem in concert; the programme notes pointed out the uncertain ending, and linked it to Verdi's own uncertain feelings with regard to religion.

Then of course there are works which are so programmatic that they essentially espouse the composers beliefs, if not specifically religious then certainly their world-view which is of course linked. Beethoven's 9th is of course in this category, but perhaps a better example are Mahler's symphonies. Here we see many aspects of his personality and his beliefs written into his music, from childhood to tragedy and in his 9th we see his own reaction to death, just like we do in Verdi's Requiem.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I would not necessarily suggest that religion is at a point right now where tonality was in the early 20th century. Though one could draw comparisons.

Not to say that Schoenberg was the Darwin of music.

But I think after Schoenberg, many composers thought that they couldn't go back to traditional tonality, that tonality was naive the way believing in a good, almighty God was naive (especially after WW2). Tonality became reactionary the way religious conservatives are reactionary.

Tonality has survived in popular music they way going to church on Christmas and using phrases like "God", "heaven", "angel", "saint", etc. has survived in people's lives.

The atheist and the believer have swapped placed in most western societies over the last hundred or so years, perhaps similar to the way tonal and atonal composers have. Dvorak pittied Brahms for his non-believe. Today, many might pitty those who have not yet let go of their "religious delusions". Or their tonal ones.
 
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#5 ·
Western classical music essentially was born out of the church. Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque and Classical - church music and composers were inseparable. They all wrote church music and or took part in church music, and were often trained in church music. Without writing a whole book on this (not that I am expert by any means), professional composers and church composers like JS Bach were very common indeed. Composing hundreds if not over a thousand church cantatas, plus other church music (i.e. music intended for church services that were premiered in a church in front of church goers) were all part of music making to celebrate and glorify their religion. While I am not religious, I certainly "thank" religion for providing great composers their source of indefatigable inspiration.

I think the one piece that brings both the church's role and the composer together in terms of summing up the then prevailing artistic models, and being the most significant earliest example, plus laying the foundation for all future models in the concert mass setting was JS Bach's Mass in B minor.

Handel's English oratorios of course, should not be strictly compared with church music, for these were premiered and intended for a theatre for fee paying audiences. These nonetheless played a large part in oratorio settings post Handel.
 
#6 · (Edited)
The religious bias/orientation in western classical music up to the end of the Baroque period was really a consequence of where suitable musical infrastucture and education lay, and the well as the all important spondulicks, i.e. the Church. Increasingly, starting in Italy, rich patrons from the nascent mercantile and middle classes assumed prominence in this role as time progressed.

If you look at Bach, independent of the fact that he wrote exclusively for the Glory of his God, the focus of his work always reflected where he happened to be working - one wouldn't/could'nt describe the B.b. Concertos as overtly "religious", but fast forward to Leipzig and its all genuflection and Hail Mary's - well at least the Mass in B Minor (I know he was a devout Lutherin).

So I think Marx had it pretty correct on this score. I would also suggest that religious music, if it is to be authentic and not merely a reflection of the prevailing historical and economic conditions, should come from the soul and not the heart. And yet, independent of the source its inspiration, all great music has the potential to provide the listener with a "religious" experience. And I say "Amen" to that!
 
#7 ·
If you look at Bach, independent of the fact that he wrote exclusively for the Glory of his God, the focus of his work always reflected where he happened to be working - one wouldn't/could'nt describe the B.b. Concertos as overtly "religious"...
The only concerto from the Brandenburg set of six that was possibly in any way linked to religion would be #3. The significance of the number "3" itself, and the scoring for three violins, three violas and three cellos, (a group of three made up of three each); extremely unusual for its day, to symbolise the Trinity.
 
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#8 ·
Beethoven didn't attend church ceremonies on his adult life, Beethoven was religious but not on the "original/mainstream ( church+bible way).
Beethoven Saw god in the world and the world in god.
He based his own beliefs of god to his own observations about the world.
 
#10 ·
Not exactly what you had in mind...

Von Bulow had just signed a 'manifesto' which stated: "Bach, Beethoven, Brahms! all others are idiots. Moritz Moszkowski wrote: "Mendelssohn, Meyerbeer, and your humble servant Moszkowski. All others are Christians."
 
#11 ·
Thanks are owed to Sid James for starting a quite fascinating thread here, which I'm, following with interest. My main interest at the moment is in Richard Wagner, who was not religious but was strongly influenced by philosophical/metaphysical ideas - particularly from Schopenhauer and Feuerbach. Some of this comes out in his operas. Parsifal is very deep, and deals a lot with the concept of redemption. It also conveys a strong sense of the sacred, I think. Tristan und Isolde has a lot of Schopenhauer in it. The Ring seems to somewhat take the mickey out of the idea of the world being ruled by an omnipotent deity, because Wotan, the head-God, is not an entirely admirable character - and at times even seems reconciled to the proposition that he should resign!

At the moment I'm in the middle of listening to Tannhauser. Can't properly comment on it yet because I've not got to the end, but it's obviously dealing with some religious themes.
 
#12 ·
Tannhäuser ends with a miracle of God and a thunderous praise chorus, and yet at the time of its composition Wagner was a total atheist with some leftist/socialist leanings. Proves all the more that one should separate the art from the artist.
 
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#13 · (Edited)
Liszt was a deeply religious man and it shows in his great choral works like the Missa Solennis and the oratorio Christus. In fact, Michael Saffle believes that works like these (and others) show a religious conviction unequalled by any other 19th century composer. His religious works both came 'from the heart,' and also from his goal to redefine church music.
 
#14 ·
On a related note: This from the Self-Help section of a mail-order catalog.

<< Start Your Own Religion
Guide to learning how to make your home a spiritual sanctuary, steer your own course, develop a personal mythology, form your own occult, connect to mythic origins, and more. 239 pages. >>

Is this dissimilar from Scriabin's program? I think not.

:cool:
 
#16 ·
Russian classical music is very much affected by Russia's Orthodox heritage. There are countless examples where composers alluded to chants, not to mention the bell tolls that almost became their cliche. Of what I've been able to discover through my research over the years, very few of the Russian composers were personally religious, but were affected nonetheless. Rimsky-Korsakov was atheist, but he still made music celebrating the Orthodox heritage (ex. Russian Easter Overture).

This here below is one of my favorite examples of Russian religious feeling. Glazunov is most certainly using a real chant as one of the main melodies (which I wish I could discover the exact origins, but that might take years of more research), and also a ton of bell allusions. This piece gives me chills like crazy, especially the bell parts.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Non-believers (atheists) have also written works that are maybe relevant here. Delius' Mass of Life is a good example. I wonder if its to fill some void, to provide something in place of religion (but obviously not religion?). I have recently acquired it on cd but have yet to listen to it.
as i've said in the other topic, i don't know if Delius was really an atheist. I think that a lot of his music his deeply spiritual (and he admired the american spirituals), but in a pantheistic way. Maybe it is possible to say that his "god" was nature.
Anyway, there are also Rachmaninoff and Herbert Howells, both agnostics who composed two masterpieces of religious music, the Vespers/All night vigil and the Hymnus paradisi.
 
#28 ·
People who met the prodigy Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart wondered about the ready-made quality of these Wunderkind compositions, as if he didn't compose 'put together' the musical notes in a certain lapse of time, but received the music, complete & finished, straight down from heaven, without the slightest effort and without a sign that the music had 'become','come to be' in time.

Theologians like Karl Barth liked to muse about the heavenly music, the music & eternal singing of the angels in front of our heavenly Father. How does this music sound? Karl Barth made the joke, that the Lord of course listened to Bach for all the official occasions, but quickly turned to Mozart when he was free for a moment...
 
#30 ·
Theologians like Karl Barth liked to muse about the heavenly music, the music & eternal singing of the angels in front of our heavenly Father. How does this music sound?
Heavenly music is an interesting concept, but have you found an indication in the Bible of angels singing? It seems like when they show up, they only speak; it's mankind who sings. In Revelation 5:9 it speaks of the four beasts and 24 elders singing, but it sounds like they are redeemed from mankind. In v. 11, when the angels join in, they don't sing but speak.

Job 38:7 speaks of morning stars singing. I'm not sure if that is referring to angels or if it is a poetic anthropomorphism ascribed to creation, as in Psalm 19:1 and 148:3.

Also, there's that strange description in Ezekiel 28:13 which some have interpreted to be Satan as a walking music machine, but actually, in this passage, Ezekiel is taunting the king of Tyre.

This is an honest question. I've been looking and have had trouble finding any instances of this.

If not, and if mankind is the one who produces music which can be directed in praise to God, it makes us kind of special.
 
#44 ·
Composers and a religion/belief/no belief connection is pretty much after-the-fact for me. I don't care for the most part, and probably wouldn't largely care, unless the religion/belief/non-belief used the compositional talent/income to fund an action or propaganda that I thought exceedingly harmful or repulsive to me and/or society.

As an artist, I would think it would be more beneficial to have as little belief as possible, so as not to discourage or restrict creativity. But I realize that's a tall order. :tiphat:
 
#45 · (Edited)
Composers and a religion/belief/no belief connection is pretty much after-the-fact for me. I don't care for the most part, and probably wouldn't largely care, unless the religion/belief/non-belief used the compositional talent/income to fund an action or propaganda that I thought exceedingly harmful or repulsive to me and/or society.

As an artist, I would think it would be more beneficial to have as little belief as possible, so as not to discourage or restrict creativity. But I realize that's a tall order. :tiphat:
Yea, I tend to think most people don't understand this. Belief can be a mighty restriction.
 
#59 · (Edited)
Endowed with free will?

Okay, I'll play. Who endowed us?

Everything is random.

Great things happen to some evil folk.

Miserable things happen to some saintly folk.

Innocent folks suffer famine, earthquakes, typhoons and tsunamis all the time.

It's all random. No rhyme or reason.

If the music makes you feel good that's fine, but to me, that's as far as I'll take it.
 
#61 ·
Okay, I'll play. Who endowed us? GOD, as is my belief.

Everything is random. I don't believe so.

Great things happen to some evil folk. Bad things happen to all evil folk, eventually.

Miserable things happen to some saintly folk. Good things happen to all saintly folk, eventually

Innocent folks suffer famine, earthquakes, typhoons and tsunamis all the time. Define 'Innocent'.

It's all random. No rhyme or reason. I don't believe so.
 
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