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Are Listeners Permitted To Dislike, And Express Such Dislike, Of Pieces Of Music?

Are Listeners Permitted To Dislike, And Express Such Dislike, Of Pieces Of Music?

31K views 256 replies 55 participants last post by  millionrainbows 
#1 ·
It seems to me there are folks who have a very hard time reading other people's expression of dislike of some pieces of music. (This appears to be the case more often than not, of supporters of modern classical music).

Well, let me put this question to you. It is a simple question, so please don't get tied down to debates about what definitions should apply to certain words. I'm just a plain music student, who embraces music that I like, and discharge those that I don't.

Are listeners allowed to dislike and express their dislike of pieces of music? From Monteverdi to Mozart to 2013 whatevers today. ;)
 
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#2 ·
Of course listeners are free to express their dislike of pieces of music. They should make it clear that it is a personal opinion & should not behave as if everyone is bound to agree with them - give reasons for their dislike - and avoid insulting composers & musicians or a whole genre of music.

If the courtesies are observed, it would be wrong to deny the right of free speech to a disliker.
 
#6 ·
It seems to me there are folks who have a very hard time reading other people's expression of dislike of some pieces of music. (This appears to be the case more often than not, of supporters of modern classical music).

Well, let me put this question to you. It is a simple question, so please don't get tied down to debates about what definitions should apply to certain words. I'm just a plain music student, who embraces music that I like, and discharge those that I don't.
If I embrace and advocate the modern classical music I like in a thread devoted to the discussion of it, you can sure as hell say you don't actually like the music but it's far better to be positive than negative. People might start to get the impression that you are a "modern music hater," so it's wise to not always express your dislike of it whenever you get the chance. ;)
 
#8 ·
Of course, anybody is allowed to state their dislikes, whatever they may be... but...

[1] please state this is your opinion, not as an absolute truth (no matter how much the latter may be an implied opinion). "I dislike the final movement of Beethoven's 9th, to me it sounds forced and ugly" is a perfectly acceptable post, but "The final movement of Beethoven's 9th is rubbish, forced and ugly" will get understandable heated reactions from those who love this piece.

[2] please make sure you do not make sweeping statements based on next to nothing. "I think the music of John Cage is rubbish" is a nonsensical statement if you have only heard (or probably heard of) 4'33 and none of his other compositions. Again, you will get understandable heated reactions from those who love this composer.
 
#10 ·
It seems to me there are folks who have a very hard time reading other people's expression of dislike of some pieces of music. (This appears to be the case more often than not, of supporters of modern classical music).
I just hate reading stupid/ignorant opinions from people judging huge amounts of music that they've never explored. But if you don't like some music and it's not for some dumb reason, fine (although I will think you're weird if you don't like Ravel).

Hip-hop is all 'money & hoes' and modern classical is random noise.
 
#11 ·
Rather than saying I dislike the music, I prefer to say that I haven't appreciated it yet, or something along those lines. In my experience hitherto, things grow on me eventually.

Of course most music appeals to me immediately. If I were one of those - sometimes it seems to me the majority here - who do not easily enjoy music, or do not enjoy much music (~"only the best!"~), maybe my tastes would be less elastic.

The issue is that when you say something like, "This music is stupid," you're always and inevitably implying something like, "People who enjoy this music are stupid." If not "stupid" then whatever insult you want to use. Unless the music in question is directed exclusively at teenagers, the latter statement is probably not true. In any case, the statement should probably be seen as a reflection on the speaker rather than on the music. When someone tells me, "Classical music sucks," I never think, "Hmmm, I didn't know that, I'll have to reevaluate it in light of that dude's opinion." Instead, of course, I think, "That dude is clueless about classical music." And when I say that I don't like new country, that tells you more about me than it does about new country.
 
#13 · (Edited)
I've only seen supporters of modern music get angry when people start calling their favourite composers hacks, charlatans, degenerates etc. without anything to back up their claims, which soon lose their cunning disguises and reveal themselves to be nothing more than "I don't get it," and when they are called out on this the message becomes "if you like it that's fine but I'm still going to heavily imply that it isn't." It seems perfectly reasonable to me that they would get angry at this kind of baiting and especially when it is persistent, as it often becomes when we have our routine "Is It Really Music?" and "Hey Guys Look at This Milton Babbitt Article Again for the 50th Time" threads every few months.

The anti-modernists, when confronted with an unfavourable opinion of their infallible god composer of choice, resort either to mass bullying or extreme condescension, the latter taking the usual form of "Of course it's okay you don't like it, it just means you're a bit dumb. :)" Personally I don't think that kind of reaction is justified, as far as I can see it only serves to maintain the popular stereotype of the classical music listener, and is more likely to prevent someone from coming to enjoy Composer X in the future than simple reassurance that it's not a personality flaw to have an opinion that doesn't fall along the party line.
 
#14 ·
The Whole Thing Modernists Vs. The Anti-Modernists Thing (hereafter "The Whole Thing") is a great debate for me because I scorn both sides, and they scorn me done and then done double, so there's all kinds of fun for everyone.

Of course The Whole Thing reduces nakedly to nothing more than a zero-sum rhetorical game. The fallout of it is that people enjoy music less than they otherwise would, but that's less a bug than a feature. The goal of the game is to reinforce our status, and we cannot do so more efficiently than completely turning away newcomers to the scene. We have to defend our turf. So, boys: Ready! Aim! Bile!
 
#15 ·
Yup! I can see nothing wrong with somebody saying they dislike e.g. harpsichord music because it's too twangly or electronic music because they can't hear a melody or whatever. It's all a matter of taste

I particularly like the version from Tristram Shandy - "De gustibus non disputandum est-that is, there is no disputing against Hobby-Horses; and for my part, I seldom do".

When I see a thread that looks as if it might be "contentious", I avoid it (unless I espy some spark of humour in the participants). It's a matter of live and let live - there is no need to look for insults or to deal them out.
 
#19 ·
Laurence Stern was the epitome of toleration, and was clearly amused by all the "hobby horses" he discovered in others. This includes Tristram's father, Walter, whose particular hobbyhorse was arguing with any indicative statement that came within earshot. It's easy enough to walk away from an unproductive argument--or to be amused by it (sneakily and not infuriatingly!). Walter is hilarious!

Everyone just has to keep in mind we're all friends here (I hope!).

Which is all to say: DFTT and be :cool:
 
#16 ·
To me it's all about context.

What I mean is, if someone were to start a thread titled "A Thread for people who love Alkan," it would be pretty clear that this person loves Alkan and just wants to talk about it with others who also love him. So, while it would probably be permitted to post in that thread that you think Alkan is unlistenable, you'd kind of be being an obnoxious dick if you did it.

However, if someone started a thread titled "Alkan's place in history" that person would be opening up a debate and should expect differing opinions.

So, it's simple, state your opinions where appropriate, but don't be a dick.
 
#17 ·
Its not mostly modern music fans. Its most music fans because when somebody insults music or anything a person strongly identifies with, they often take those insults personally, because they're so deeply invested in the thing being attacked. Modern music is often insulted (and typically by people who've barely listened to any) and so you'll hear more people coming to its defense, but I assure you it comes both ways. About a year ago on this very forum I made it known that I wasn't especially fond of Mozart and thought he was over-rated, and the rage coming my way was pretty intense XD People accused me of trolling for sharing that opinion. And thats because they really love the work of Mozart, just as I can get upset when people constantly bash John Cage or dismiss Frank Zappa, because I love their work.
 
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#18 · (Edited by Moderator)
[I've started a thread about a TV programme about film music. Even if you're not able to watch the programme (BBC4), there ought to be more mileage in disagreeing about the extent to which film scores can make or break a film, or at least significantly affect the experience. I have no problem with the deliberate messing with my emotions that can be the result of a craftily (or even heavy-handedly) manipulated soundtrack.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Of course. It is the form of how that dislike is expressed which can, and I think should, be taken issue with if it falls short of some very well known, standard and basic rules of debate / discussion.

The Ten Commandments of Rational Debate
Font Darkness Number Monochrome photography Event


An all too common and highly reactive comment is the emotion based, "you don't like a composer whose music I love" sort of thing -- the dynamic being the person who takes another's dislike of their favored (beloved) composer as a personal dis of the legitimacy of their feelings and / or person, which I thought people had learned the silliness of by middle school. Really, that sort of reaction is as much of a waste of column space in a thread as, "Oh, No! Don't hate on that song," which is exactly as immature as it sounds.

The other very bad type of reaction (even weirder to me, also seen on TC too often and elsewhere) is when there is a topic -- especially contemporary music is prone to this phenomenon -- where a reader somehow gets all ego bound and imagines one or both of these two things:
1.) The existence of the topic as presented is an automatic slam on the taste of the person who does not get or care for contemporary music (i.e, the topic's subject)
and / or
2.) Somehow the very existence of that thread is a direct and militant order to the reader that they must listen to and like contemporary music. (i.e, the topic's subject)

I do really have a hard time that anyone past middle school still reacts in such a way: it is clear they think any comment on anything not in accord with their opinion on the matter is personal and about them. It is surprising and discouraging they would still have that mode so up front in their thinking.

The missed takes in reading and the reactions, mistaking simple statements leading to situations like those mentioned above, are, sorry, pathetic..

You are not "discussing" anything if you say merely, "This music is rubbish," or call some repertoire "grating noise," etc. Sure, it is "an opinion," but an opinion of no worth at all.

I find those approaches or "dynamics" infantile and a more than seriously unattractive stamp of self-indulgent. That pathology -- or attitude, does not make for any thing which could be called discussion, while it is perfect for igniting "epic," childish flame wars.
 
#21 ·
I think pretty much everyone on TC agrees that anyone can express dislike of a composer or of certain music. The problem occurs when that expression crosses certain boundaries. Those boundaries appear to be:

1) Use of words that degrade a composer or work.
"I do not enjoy Beethoven" is perfectly fine. "Beethoven's music is hard to listen to" is probably OK. "Beethoven sucks", "Beethoven is garbage", or "Beethoven destroyed Romantic Music" is over the line for many.

2) Not explaining reasons for strong opinions.
While I have no problem if someone does not give reasons for their dislike, many feel that specific expressions about a composer's music ought to be followed up by some explanation. "I don't like Beethoven because his works are a jumbled mess" might provoke demands for further explanation. "I don't like Beethoven because his works are a jumbled mess; for example, in the Grosse Fuge the melody quickly becomes distorted due to ..." would probably get different and less attacking responses.

3) Continued expressions of dislike.
Anyone can say "I don't like Beethoven". Fine. Bit if someone says "I don't like Beethoven" in 20 different threads or several times in the same thread, that's pushing it a bit much.

For those who want to express dislike and who don't like being attacked, I would simply suggest using the first person (I), giving reasons for specific criticisms, and not expressing your dislike every time the issue arises.
 
#26 ·
Talkclassical is a really good place because it is well-moderated. (Kissing up here. Shamelessly. Any a you mods need water? I got water in the fridge.) So that when we go at each other, we have to choose our words carefully so that we can have plausible deniability. Nevertheless, the readers are as literate as the writers....

The internet might be so new that there are some problems of communication, but literacy has been around a few decades more than the internet. We're a pretty highly literate community here - the kind of people whose livelihoods depend to some degree on typing stuff on a screen, who read for fun, etc. So I don't think there's much misunderstanding of tone here. The problem is not that we misunderstand each other too much, but that we often understand each other too well!
 
#22 ·
People are saying that the vitriol is only against those who say modern composers are hacks, charlatans, their music is "noise", etc. and I would agree with some hostility toward those comments. Those sort of comments offer nothing and they're often found in places where they shouldn't be. In a thread dedicated to discussing modern music, what's the point of comments that dismiss modern music? As a fan of dubstep, I know what it's like to have a lot of people dismiss the entire genre as "mindless noise". I get that all the time from people who don't like dubstep. And there is some tendency for me to think when I hear that: "you just don't get it".

That said, even with comments that are not simple-minded or hostile, comments like "I just don't prefer contemporary/avant-garde music", which is something that I could say. I have listened to a lot of it, I have tried it. I just don't care for much of it. But for some, that's not enough. They have to tell me that I "don't understand" it or that I shouldn't "limit" myself to "tonal music" or something like that. I would never be the type to walk into a thread about modern music and say "modern music sucks!" (I don't think that anyway), but I wish I could, when asked about contemporary music, be honest about it and not be bombarded with people trying to show me why my opinions are wrong. I get that you're enthusiastic about a type of music you love and you wish others could appreciate it the way you do. But for those whose taste it doesn't quite match, it might be best to let be. If someone is genuinely interested, then by all means, give all the information about it that you can.

Maybe it's just the way I approach things, but if someone tells me they genuinely don't like a composer or genre that I like, as in, not just "it sucks", but they have tried it and just don't prefer it (like PetrB's statements on Rachmaninov), I'm not going to say "well, you probably just don't get it, have you tried such-and-such?" To me, that's a little condescending.

I know I've been rambling and this thread will probably get closed, but I just wanted to say that.
 
#24 · (Edited)
I know I've been rambling and this thread will probably get closed
I doubt it--everyone's been pretty civil on this thread, so far as I can tell. Your own post is up to the typical high standard.

While I agree with everything else you say, I'll just say again that whether one is in TC or a state of nature like Youtube (no offense--I need you and love you, Youtube!), you're going to see a lot of nasty, brutish, and short denunciations of contemporary music and musicians. We can periodically talk about how there's no need for such things, but they're going to appear regardless, so please everyone do your best not to be bothered by it every time! I'll say no more!
 
#25 ·
Yeah, I can understand how that could get frustrating. I just wouldn't do that. There is plenty of music I don't like, like screamo, for example. I really don't like that. It actually gives me a headache. But would I go onto a thread about screamo or a screamo YouTube video and say "this music is just pure crap; why do people even like it?" No. And I don't understand why people feel the need to do that, because I definitely see it happen.
 
#27 · (Edited)
It's ok if you dislike something. But I think a bit of humbleness, the acceptance that your own interpretation is only one possible interpretation and maybe what seems ugly to you is only the result of your own interpretation (or lack of it), never hurt anyone.

Meta question: are readers permitted to express dislike or even criticize other opinions? Why is it allowed to do criticism of art but the critics themselves are not allowed to be critiqued? Everyone has the right to their own opinions. But if you're willing to attack, you better be ready to take a few hits yourself.

(of course, I know it's against the rules of TC. But that doesn't mean I have to think that those are good rules)
 
#38 ·
Meta question: are readers permitted to express dislike or even criticize other opinions? Why is it allowed to do criticism of art but the critics themselves are not allowed to be critiqued? Everyone has the right to their own opinions. But if you're willing to attack, you better be ready to take a few hits yourself.

(of course, I know it's against the rules of TC. But that doesn't mean I have to think that those are good rules)
Criticizing others' opinions is not against the rules of TC. Criticizing others directly is against the rules. "Your view of Boulez is completely wrong because..." is fine. "You are a sniveling twerp without a brain" will result in infractions. Many of us greatly enjoy discussions where members critique each others' comments. It would be a bit dull if no opinions could be questioned or critiqued.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Of course listeners are free to express their likes of dislikes but there are limits in the way this dislikes are being expressed, not because of offending somebody, but because the quality of a debate.

If somebody tells me that a composer I like is crap she or he can not upset me. On the contrary, I feel sorrow about that expression. But it is OK. That is all she or he can give. A very poor giving from that person.

This is not the problem. The problem is that such an stupid statement like 'this composer is crap' (or the greatest) degrades the quality of a discussion.
 
#32 ·
Wherever it strikes me as right and proper and safer, I just use IMO - it has saved me a lot of grief I think, as it diffuses my posts as seeming attacks on others' tastes/opinions. I really hate to see snideness or 'insider' condescension. Fact is, I haven't seen as much of it as when I first joined almost two years ago, but I may just be missing it - I swim the currents of CURRENT LISTENING almost exclusively for posting and merely read and 'like' or think 'Hmmmm' re the Discussion Forum posts. No one should logout feeling depressed or attacked or defeated on TC - or triumphant, for that matter, IMO. I do get a thrill when I get a lot of 'likes', and so I hand them out by the bushels, but only for works I know or hear and like on a YT offering or for a well-written post.

On the other hand: if two members (or more) who obviously know each other and have a history of commenting back and forth get a bit rough-house, I don't mind. I miss Polednice, and he could stir up a storm in fewer syllables than anyone I've come across on TC. Many people thrive on the intelligent jousting or posting something really outrageous. I have been 'knocked about' by a few remarks, probably deserved - my tack is not to reply unless I can add some humor or bash their heads in with my perfect argument. :) Good Saturday to ye all.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Wherever it strikes me as right and proper and safer, I just use IMO
No one should ever need to use that! The "best informed" and the non-informed opinion, being opinion, already carries that qualification at all times.

I've taken to using IMHO when addressing another party who seems to have overlooked the fact it is all opinion, or use it in a sort of satiric context.

It is all opinion, but anyone should expect, whatever the opinion, to make a good argument for that opinion or a good argument in rebuttal of another opinion, vs. worthless statements like "that music is trash.'
 
#33 ·
Learning something

I very rarely learn anything about music from reading a dissertation by Johnson complaining about the music of Jackson.

A rare exception was hriechgott's excellent critique of new complexity music: http://www.talkclassical.com/27996-new-complexity-discussion-thread.html#post528432

It is much better than, "I hate this music because it does not have a pretty melody that I can whistle when I am on a rack."
 
#36 ·
I might add that you're less likely to convince someone that the music of so-and-so is bad, when you're making blanket statements instead of stating a personal opinion. It certainly doesn't help your agenda, if you have one.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Wow! This thread is pretty mild, and I'm glad of it! :D

Well,a person can display their disinterest and/or dislike for a dissonant or disgraceful, or perhaps even, in their opinion, disgusting discovery of classical music, dispensing their dismay into the realms of another's perhaps disinterested brain, altering their dispositions....

I am on such a prefix roll.... :lol:

The above is all true, I suppose, but I wouldn't like to hear people rant about something they don't like.
Remember that thread about music to throw in the trash? Yes, it really can get unpleasant.
Therefore, go for it, but stay mild. Don't rage, or you just might disgrace yourself!!! :D
 
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