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Should women conduct?

19K views 174 replies 44 participants last post by  Frederik Magle 
#1 ·
Repeated from another forum: Some conductors of Russian background don't think so. Vasily Petrenko recently said that orchestras "react better" to male conductors and that "a sweet girl on the podium can make one's thoughts drift towards something else."

An earlier interview with Yuri Temirkanov, who was a mentor to both Petrenko and Gergiev, includes this exchange:

Q.: In your opinion, could a woman conduct?
A.: In my view, no.
Q.: Why not?!
A.: I don't know if it's God's will, or nature's, that women give birth and men do not. That's something that no one takes offense at. But if you say that a women can't conduct, then everyone's offended. As Marx said, in response to the question "What's your favorite virtue in a woman?"-"Weakness." And this is correct. The important thing is, a woman should be beautiful, likable, attractive. Musicians will look at her and be distracted from the music!
...
Q.: Nevertheless, you maintain that these are less than women, or less than conductors.
A.: No, simply that in my opinion, it's counter to nature.

Your opinion?

The article is at http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2013/10/women-gays-and-classical-music.html
 
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#62 ·
Is this even a discussion? Is there seriously anyone on this forum that would say no?

If a guy can't keep his mind on the music while a woman conducts, that's his problem not hers.

Petrenko and Temirkanov are idiots

/thread.
I hope that since I'm not the originator of this thread or question I wouldn't be penalized for my opinion.
I think that Women can do whatever they want, they can be conductors, composers, pianists and any thing that is nice and respectful as long as the audience is all female. I'm saying this because I believe that in a way a women's public exposure in that capacity (mixed audience of men and women) doesnt suit her high and noble status. Look for example at the Queen of England, why is she wearing all those long sleeves and elegant long skirts, and hats? because she is a Queen, and wearing anything that is over exposed is below her dignity. So too, I believe that every women is a Queen, that she needs to be more modest in everything she does. And that modesty is her dignity and respect.

So its not the profession I'm against, but the setting.
 
#4 ·
The wonderful Bruckner cycle of Simone Young should be proof in and of itself that there is no reason to even consider this question. I've heard good things about her Ring cycle as well.

The current leader of Boulez's Ensemble InterContemporain is Susanna Mälkki, and, although I've never cared much for her conducting, Marin Alsop has made quite a name for herself with American repertoire.
 
#16 ·
The wonderful Bruckner cycle of Simone Young should be proof in and of itself that there is no reason to even consider this question. I've heard good things about her Ring cycle as well.
One of my friends has sung in a performance of Brett Dean's The Last Days of Socrates, a massive hour long work for chorus and orchestra, conducted by Simone Young. She told me that Young was simply the most incredible conductor she's ever encountered when she has sung choral works with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra.

I've heard an interesting anecdote about Simone Young, one time years ago she was in a conducting workshop with a group of other fairly young conductors. The maestro who was taking this workshop watched each conductor in turn with the orchestra, and then completely rip them to shreds with his criticisms on their conducting (well he did also give a lot of constructive comments). After Simone Young conducted, the maestro simply said to her "That was good, I have nothing to say."
 
#7 · (Edited)
By "western" standards, even the most highly educated of Slavic males are throwbacks when it comes to male chauvinism, homophobia, and "macho" self-identification.

There are other such cultures, non-christian and people with other complexions, where their women must cover their hair (or their entirety!), the men rationalizing that to see the women's hair has such a sexually strong appeal that it is maddening / distracting.

The usual western reaction to that mind-set is to think of those macho men as no better than boys who have never reached adulthood, or even more basic, like animals with no level of self-control. I suppose we don't say the same thing about their Slavic equivalents because they are "Christian" and "Caucasian?"

Any way, the Slavic throwback male, whatever else his accomplishments, is downright laughable when it comes to this area of being a throwback.

[[ADD: The sweeping generalities above, of course, do not apply to each and every to the last Slavic male.]]
 
#40 ·
By "western" standards, even the most highly educated of Slavic males are throwbacks when it comes to male chauvinism, homophobia, and "macho" self-identification.
Yes, but in the West ideals that are encouraged for more freedom and equality for women have been linked to underlying motives such as trying to get more women to smoke and to simply get more women in the work place under the guise of 'equal rights'. This has led to unprecedentedly high rates of divorce and dysfunctional/broken homes.

I strongly disagree with the idea that women should not conduct simply because they are women but also strongly disagree with the notion that 'Western standards' are some kind of a moral compass on these issues for the rest of the world.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Vasily Petrenko recently said that orchestras "react better" to male conductors and that "a sweet girl on the podium can make one's thoughts drift towards something else.
So, weak women can control their thoughts while being conducted by a man (not that innocent, delicate creatures like women usually have sexual thoughts to begin with), but strong men (all straight, of course) freak out at the sight of a girl and act like male freshmen on their first day of high school? Typical sexist nonsense that doesn't treat either men or women as actual adults.
 
#12 ·
Maybe I'm way off base , but possibly the reason why Temirkanov (I conductor I admire greatly ) made his
unfortunate statements is becuse he's not actually a Russian but an ethnic Circassian from the Caucasus .
The Circssians are Muslims, although I don't know if Temirknov is an observant one, and have a very
traditional tribal culture with all kinds of quaint traditions and customs which date back to ancient times .
They are as different in language and culture from the Russians from Arabs . They have very trditional attitudes toward
the roles of men and women in society .
They're a fascinating and very ancient people with an ancient chivalric code called the "Khabze" (very guttural kh ).
You can see really cool videos of them on youtube and hear their weird language, which sounds more like Klingon
than a human language .
They came under Russian domination in the 19th century , and were the victims of genocide .
Many fled to Turkey , Jordan and other middle eastern countries where their descendnts still live .
Circssian folk music and traditional folk dances are cool ! Prokofiev's string quartet no 2 makes use of
traditional Circssian folk songs .
 
#13 · (Edited)
Beginning in the Soviet years, Russia has had one of the first prominent female conductors, Veronika Dudarova, who made quite a few, good Melodiya recordings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veronika_Dudarova, working with the Moscow State Symphony Orchestra since 1947.

(Quote Wiki: "According to her son Mikhail, during a concert in Andorra in 1993, due to her intense style of conducting, Dudarova fell from the podium, but went on conducting the orchestra lying on the floor leaning on her right hand and the piece was performed to the end without an interruption.[4]")

Soviet laws were progressive as regards women´s rights, but there´s a very conservative underlying tradition in the Russian society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism_in_Russia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Russia), and current trends unfortunately seem to strengthen it - such as a church authority condemning feminism as a "mortal sin", and the trial against feminist happenings there recently, which had obvious flaws, as seen in the HBO documentary about it.
 
#18 ·
We've had two woman conductors with the Nashville Symphony. I think their titles were assistant conductors. I didn't see any diminishing of the ensemble playing because of their "distracting" gender. Of course, the concertmaster is also female, so that would help reducing the distraction factor. In fact, our latest one conducted a John Williams pops concert. I never liked the Superman theme until she conducted it.
 
#23 · (Edited)
If one of them is the person who sometimes conducts the Concert on the Lawn series at Vanderbilt, I think I sort of know her -- a friend of a friend. A very comfortable individual to be around, but I've never had the privilege of seeing her conduct.

I'm not honoring the original comment (Temirkanov's I mean, not KenOc's) as worthy of a response.
 
G
#25 · (Edited)
In the OP, KenOC quotes Temirkanov...

[...] "The important thing is, a woman should be beautiful, likable, attractive."
In response to Temirkanov, Cheyenne says

This is more than a little disturbing. Anyhow, all nonsense of course. Unfortunate that these views are still held.
Hang on a minute...let's not run too far in the opposite direction: next you'll be saying that women should be ugly, unlikeable and repulsive! ;)
 
#28 ·
Hang on a minute...let's not run too far in the opposite direction: next you'll be saying that women should be ugly, unlikeable and repulsive! ;)
Well, likeable is a trait that most everyone should strive for within reason, not an inherently "woman" trait. And since beautiful and attractive are both subjective, if every girl was beautiful to one guy or girl no one would be beautiful to a bunch of other guys or girls. ;)
 
#26 ·
MacLeod, please have a care. It appears that you're quoting me, though you're actually quoting Temirkanov. You're going to get me ripped to shreds by the rabid PC Faithful around here, who seem to be legion. Them's the times. The fact that times will change, and conventional opinions along with them, seems far from people's minds.
 
#30 ·
In this day and age there is no reason why a talented woman shouldn't conduct an orchestra. However as image (for male as well as female) is part of the advertising used for records I would say it would help if she was attractive.
We see vast numbers of stunningly attractive young female soloists paraded by the record companies on their labels. While not doubting the excellence of their playing, I just wonder whether such people would get to so far if they were not so good looking. Does their looks give them an advantage in the market?
 
#31 ·
Q.: In your opinion, could a woman conduct?
A.: In my view, no.
Q.: Why not?!
A.: I don't know if it's God's will, or nature's, that women give birth and men do not. That's something that no one takes offense at. But if you say that a women can't conduct, then everyone's offended. As Marx said, in response to the question "What's your favorite virtue in a woman?"-"Weakness." And this is correct. The important thing is, a woman should be beautiful, likable, attractive. Musicians will look at her and be distracted from the music!
...
Q.: Nevertheless, you maintain that these are less than women, or less than conductors.
A.: No, simply that in my opinion, it's counter to nature.
Male chauvinism is still alive and kicking!
 
#33 ·
I have covers with Yuja Wang and Alison Balsom. It has to be said that both play brilliantly. But the editor of the Gramophone once told me that the sight of a pretty face on the magazine increases sales. So presumably the same is true for recordings!
 
#55 ·
At the beginning of his recital career, the (still good looking by general standards) very young and handsome Leif Ove Andsnes filled many a concert hall, the program a lot of romantic piano music. One reviewer remarked there were an unusual number of young women in the audience who were normally not seen at classical music concerts.

"Good looks are the best introduction anyone can have." ~ Aristotle

Regardless of gender, if you're "good looking" by the general standard, your publicists will use it.
 
G
#37 ·
Repeated from another forum: Some conductors of Russian background don't think so. Vasily Petrenko recently said that orchestras "react better" to male conductors and that "a sweet girl on the podium can make one's thoughts drift towards something else."
Presumably, he doesn't have sweet girls in his orchestras either, so his thoughts don't drift while he's on the podium!?
 
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