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'Music is the only sensual pleasure without vice' - Is this true?

10K views 42 replies 26 participants last post by  DavidA 
#1 ·
Words spoken by Samuel Johnson. Is this true, at least within the realm of virtue ethics? and beyond?

For those of us who are religious, can it be sinful to love music too much, can we sometimes value it before God? If so, how do we avoid this.

I have re-found my catholic faith recently, and yet I continue to value music above many things; I wonder at what point this love turns sour and becomes immoral. Even in the context of religious music, it seems to me one can get wrapped around the music itself more than the meaning, I can't work out if this is a bad thing or not, since music is a natural part of creation and is meant to be enjoyed.
 
#5 ·
First, Johnson was putting on his usual overstatement for effect. You can give your natural senses pleasure in many ways without it being sinful. Reading, hearing a play, eating, even stroking a cat - these and much else can give pleasure to the senses.

As to the question of loving music too much. Of course you can love it too much. For example, if I listen to music to the neglect of my wife and family then it's wrong. The same can be said about the love of sport. The whole thing is to keep balance.

As for faith, I personally have found that faith makes sense of things like music.
 
#6 ·
I think you are pretty much spot on.

Part of what caused me to make this thread was a passage from Dante's Inferno (not that I hold it to be anything beyond enjoyable poetic speculation of the afterlife) where Dante comes across the great poets in Limbo, Homer and Ovid etc., who spend an eternity contemplating aesthetics and poetry in an existence without suffering, but which lacks the joy and enlightenment of heaven.

I found it an interesting perspective, since there is some truth in the idea that aesthetic appreciation and contemplation is not the be-all and end-all to our existence. It sounds obvious now but I know I myself can get caught up in music in such a way.
 
#7 ·
Many of the world's greatest composers were very religious, and they were pretty caught up in music. I don't feel the least bit guilty for enjoying sensual pleasures, and loving music. The division of sensuality and spirituality is an unfortunate aspect of western religion.
 
#8 ·
For those of us who are religious, can it be sinful to love music too much, can we sometimes value it before God? If so, how do we avoid this.
Many people find consolation in music and treat it as kind of sanctuary in which they find refuge from world's miseries. This is often accomplished by "running away" into music from reality and conciousness. In Christian morality, it can be considered immoral since people ought to look for consolation and refuge in God by means of understanding and embracing his will and his perfections.
 
#9 ·
The love of art or music could be wrong if used for 'mere' selfish enjoyment which stops you really caring about people in need that you could make an effort to help. Mea culpa, I have sometimes had a feeling, when a crisis loomed and I was required to get off my butt and do something, that I'd been so looking forward to a film or some music, and what a shame these family members (or whatever) had got in the way! :eek:

But with that proviso, I think 'losing' yourself in music gives you a mystical experience that brings you closer to God; or if you're not religious, it gives an insight into the beauty of this world.

Erasmus, who prided himself on his Latin style, had a dream in which he arrived at the gates of heaven and asked to be admitted. St Peter demurred. Erasmus said, 'Christianus sum' - I am a Christian.

To which St Peter replied, 'Non Christianus, sed Ciceronianus.' - You are not a Christian, you are a Ciceronian.

And shut the gate!

This dream helped Erasmus get his priorities right!
 
#11 ·
It's interesting that some conservative islamists prohibit music because it's sensual pleasure, thus sinful. While Quran recitation 'sung' in a maqam (scale) is not considered music at all.
Some sufists on the other hand think we love music because it's a direct image of God (no form 'in between'). Eventually Hazrat Inayat Khan gave up music to be in closer contact with God. His pantheistic view also includes that everything is 'music' (cf John Cage).
 
#12 ·
I'm a little confused by the OP because the Johnson quote is that music is a sensual pleasure WITHOUT vice -- and the OP suggests that, at least under certain conditions, enjoying music IS a vice.

It's probably worth noting that the quote comes from a time when novel-reading and theatre-going were also considered vices by many religious people. As with cigars and port, these vices were associated with wealth and status, acceptable and decent in their way, but everyone knew that overindulgence was bad for you (and religious people used them as a way to criticize a wealthy lifestyle). Johnson then comes along and says that music is like all these things because it's fun, but unlike all of them it isn't a vice.

Johnson was a pretty satirical guy also, so probably any quotes from him shouldn't be read out of context.
 
#17 · (Edited)
True, Johnson liked jokes, could be satirical, and he also exaggerated when he 'talked for victory'. But he was also an earnest Christian and tended to be more serious when he talked about morality. A lot of the time, he didn't talk about it - he did it, looking after all sorts of needy people in his own household. Strict with himself, he was fairly tolerant of the 'vices' of others.

Willy-nilly, I think it's an excellent way of introducing a discussion as to whether music is moral or immoral in certain contexts.
 
#13 ·
As I say there has been a certain asceticism come into the Christian faith. This included for example the fact that there was no singing in certain churches after the reformation. Martin Luther didn't ascribe to this as he believed that music was a fundamental to worshipping God. Similarly the evangelicals in England wrote many wonderful hymns of whom Charles Wesley's are the greatest. The fact is that the Bible says that God has given us all things are richly to enjoy. But he has given us the responsibility of being the judges of how that enjoyment should take place in his world.
 
#14 ·
I've appreciated all the comments so far.

When I first came to the Christian faith, I made a personal decision to put aside things like music for a time because I loved it too much, and it distracted me from God. Paul in the letter to the Romans makes allowances for people like that, who he calls weak in the faith, and fellow believers respected my decision.

With time, though, I've gained perspective, and now I listen to all types of music. The proviso is that I can listen with God present. This has even included "immoral" music (at least immoral from a religious perspective) at times - from the Velvet Underground to Eminem - because it has allowed me to understand how other people think, to understand other peoples' experience, or to understand what other people are moved/influenced by; I just don't overindulge in or celebrate that kind of music.

As to the OP, personally, I love jazz. Because of that, I listen in small doses, or I'd get caught up in it - always thinking about how someone played a piece, what licks he strung with what, that kind of thing. I know it's time to stop when I feel it start to pull on me, and that's how I deal with it.
 
#16 ·
I find taking a deep breath on a warm sunny day--or for that matter cold, fresh, bright days and on days of persistent hugging rain--a very great sensual pleasure. I don't perceive the vice in it at all. But then I think some people are more prone to finding vice than feeling nice.

Johnson wasn't really the kind of man to be interested in music but being a literary celebrity meant he was invited to be part of the wealthy salon culture and usually gave good value for money by saying something witty, acerbic or fascinating. He is reputed to have said when some lady asked him how he liked the entertainment "Of all noises I think music is the least disagreeable."
 
#18 ·
I would never consider the love of music immoral or the love of it turning sour, in fact I would state that my love of music has if anything made me a better person. There is so much humanity in great music and for some it can be a direct link to a higher power.
Whether religious or not I wouldn't want someone dictating to me what I should or shouldn't do ( in this case listen to music) considering it is a pretty harmless activity and looking at society at the present time a very laudable pastime.
 
#19 ·
To me, music is so much more than just "pleasure". Certainly listening to music can be pleasurable, but to stop there would be oversimplification. Music does a lot more than just make me "feel good" (not that there is anything wrong with feeling good; it's unfortunate that a religious perspective often causes us to feel guilt when we feel good). Music is cerebral for me; it goes beyond sensual pleasure. I could live without many other things considered "sensual pleasure", but I don't think I could live without music.
 
#20 ·
My original perspective was, looking back, pretty sensationalist and ill-informed. So yeah perhaps written out of an intention to provoke discussion (and enable my pretentious posturing) than a genuine desire for concrete answers.

You'll have to forgive my shameless excuses, I'm only young and the OP was perhaps not written in the greatest of spirits!
 
#21 ·
Words spoken by Samuel Johnson. Is this true, at least within the realm of virtue ethics? and beyond?

For those of us who are religious, can it be sinful to love music too much, can we sometimes value it before God? If so, how do we avoid this.

I have re-found my catholic faith recently, and yet I continue to value music above many things; I wonder at what point this love turns sour and becomes immoral. Even in the context of religious music, it seems to me one can get wrapped around the music itself more than the meaning, I can't work out if this is a bad thing or not, since music is a natural part of creation and is meant to be enjoyed.
I'll confess that I don't feel much urgency about these questions, but they are very interesting from a historical perspective. In the years around the Reformation (in particular, but also at other times), there was a lot of very anxious discussion about composers undermining the significance of biblical passages by making them virtually inaudible in their complex musical compositions. Tensions are apparent in the writings of a music-lover like Martin Luther. As usual, even ideas that seem extreme or even absurd had significant--if not exactly direct or predictable--influences on both how and why music was composed.

If you're interested, Wikipedia can be helpful in tracking down information (as in this essay on the Counter-Reformation), but the standard histories (Grout, Taruskin, etc.) will provide more musically focused discussion.

My apologies if all this is old hat to you.
 
#24 ·
In the years around the Reformation (in particular, but also at other times), there was a lot of very anxious discussion about composers undermining the significance of biblical passages by making them virtually inaudible in their complex musical compositions. Tensions are apparent in the writings of a music-lover like Martin Luther. As usual, even ideas that seem extreme or even absurd had significant--if not exactly direct or predictable--influences on both how and why music was composed.

My apologies if all this is old hat to you.
May I just add was that the controversy was about whether music should enter into church worship or not. It wasn't about music enjoyed as a pastime. Hence a puritan like Oliver Cromwell disapproved of music in church worship yet at his daughter's wedding there was music and dancing and we read Cromwell participated in the dancing. Hence it is clear that these people did not disapprove of music in itself as a sin.
 
#22 ·
Words spoken by Samuel Johnson. Is this true, at least within the realm of virtue ethics? and beyond?

For those of us who are religious, can it be sinful to love music too much, can we sometimes value it before God? If so, how do we avoid this.

I have re-found my catholic faith recently, and yet I continue to value music above many things; I wonder at what point this love turns sour and becomes immoral. Even in the context of religious music, it seems to me one can get wrapped around the music itself more than the meaning, I can't work out if this is a bad thing or not, since music is a natural part of creation and is meant to be enjoyed.
Well, you have answered your own question - music is natural and meant to be enjoyed. So get on with your enjoyment and stop creating internal doubts.
 
#26 ·
There's a lovely touch from Shakespeare's Winter's Tale:

... the shearers, three-man-song-men all, and very good ones; but they are most of them means and bases; but one puritan amongst them, and he sings psalms to horn-pipes.
The puritan was the only one with a high voice and he preferred to put godly words to popular tunes.
 
#27 ·
There's a lovely touch from Shakespeare's Winter's Tale:

The puritan was the only one with a high voice and he preferred to put godly words to popular tunes.
We must remember that Christians of done this throughout the centuries. It was Martin Luther who actually encourage the use of common tunes which was sung by the people to which godly words were set. Other examples include Charles Wesley and William Booth. The latter is credited as saying why should the devil have all the best tunes. Of course the puritan disapproval of music in church was a reaction to the over elaborate music that had been sung in churches by trained choirs.
 
#28 ·
'Music is the only sensual pleasure without vice'
There are a few difficulties in this statement.
1) What is music? As soon as I hear senseless jingle-jangle of electrical guitars on the radio (my wife listens to the radio) I experience this in my ears as 'vice', because for me there's no music in it, no single sensation of sensual pleasure. Instead of music I experience nothing but a persisting kind of fake. But :eek: on the radio this is being presented as: music. So mankind is not one in experiencing music as music. I think that the statement can be clarified when we substitute fake instead of vice: Music is the only sensual pleasure without fake.
2) About vice, sinfulness, immoralty etc.: I see this a typical pastime of theologians, who are not taking the message of the Scriptures serious, that all our sins have been forgiven.
 
#29 ·
In the novel Der Zauberberg by Thomas Mann, a character, who labels himself a secular humanist, deems music "politically suspect" because it can advocate dreaminess and stupor, the listener losing oneself in it instead of being active in the material world.
 
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#31 ·
Since I don't think it's been mentioned yet, I think I'll add my two cents. Buddhism suggests that sensual pleasures, including music, should be viewed with suspicion due to the ease with which they breed attachment. Yes, it's pleasant now, but if you become attached to it, then being away from it, longing for it, will be unpleasant. That's not to say you can never enjoy them, just do so in moderation and avoid becoming too attached to them.
 
#34 ·
vice is an evil - which for religious people is 'sin'; whether religious or not, most can see that overindulgence in sensual pleasures lead to greed, selfishness, obesity, callousness etc & you could end up hurting people - so that would be 'an evil'.
Does music lead to evil if 'overindulged in'? I say that it can, but you'd have to try a lot harder...
 
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