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Mahler's Eighth Symphony: Eek, a ghost!

6K views 45 replies 10 participants last post by  millionrainbows 
#1 ·
I am a bit ambivalent about Mahler's Eighth, with its "creator Hymn." This is about the Holy Spirit, in other words, Pentecostal, and that sort of demonstrative, physically animated extravagance makes me nervous. I remember a friend of mine saying "You gotta come with me to this church, you'll be surprised!" and I, indeed, was. It turned out to be a Pentecostal church, and this lady jumped up and started 'speaking in tongues.' It about scared the crap out of me.

Thus, having studied Carl Jung's ideas, I am nervous about 'the holy spirit' animating people. This is like the "God" archetype being activated psychically, and it becomes manifest in the person, like any archetype can. And when people in groups start 'activating archetypes,' like thwe Manson family did, it makes me nervous.

If Mahler had adhered to Judaism, he would have agreed that "God stopped talking directly to Man some time ago," and any good Christian would say that Christ was sent for this same reason, and while both views are different, at least The Holy Spirit is out of the picture, and Men are left to their own responsibilities and actions.

I don't know exactly what Mahler's intent was, but he surely made a very big deal out of it, both in the work itself and the people present at the premiers. Webern conducted it as well. Maybe this appeased the Christian elements in Germany at that time, but if this is true, it didn't work, because Mahler ended up quitting the Vienna opera and being 'run out of town' anyway. The growing political climate started gearing-up around this time, culminating in Nazi Germany, and the German people going along with this madness. I wonder, were they "full of the spirit" when this all happened?

I say this Eighth Symphony of Mahler's is a grim premonition, just as his Sixth was; only this time, Mahler was naïve enough to believe that Christians "filled with the Holy Spirit" would manifest their higher selves; instead, it seems that the flip-side of archetypes is revealed by what transpired later.

I know this is a rather far-fetched notion of mine, but no more far-fetched than the Holy Spirit entering people, and 'speaking in tongues.' Go ahead, have a field-day with it; I don't care.
 
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#2 ·
Mahler may have converted to Christianity,and he did believe in a higher power of some kind for sure, but he was anything but orthodox in his beliefs. He took an interest in a number of different kinds of mysticism over the course of his life, and it is notable that when he set Christian texts, he removed dogmatic elements. So the first problem with your interpretation is that it takes the literal view that Mahler believed in the Christian Holy Spirit.

The interpretation that I've seen most often, and the one that is indeed supported by Mahler's juxtaposition of the Latin hymn text with that of Goethe's Faust, Part 2 (which I have, at times, thought of as "Faust's adventures in purgatory"), is that he wanted to evoke the idea of the "creative spirit" and higher spirituality in general. The motifs associated with the "Veni creator" theme in the first movement return often throughout the second, and in fact the themes in the second movement are created out of those in the first.

It's also important to note that Mahler may have written the Eighth before he was forced to resign from his position at the Vienna State Opera, but he finished it afterwards. In fact, the premiere performance took place in the fall of 1910, at the point when all of the "Mahler as soothsayer" critics claim he was acutely aware of his own impending death and had already written two or three farewells to the world. Fortunately, he managed to be able to rehearse the orchestras and make the premiere of this complex work a resounding success, despite his own doomedness.

I don't see either Mahler's Eighth or his Sixth as "premonitions", but merely as expressions of his wide-ranging worldview, which could encompass everything from exultation to tragedy.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Veni Creator Spiritus: When the original Latin text is used, it is normally sung in Gregorian Chant. As an invocation of the Holy Spirit, in the practice of the Roman Catholic Church it is sung during the liturgical celebration of the feast of Pentecost (at both Terce and Vespers). (WIK)

Mahler had 'unorthodox beliefs,' but nonetheless, he was using this text, and the 1000-plus force of musicians and singers to "invoke the Holy Spirit," or some kind of spirit. In Jungian terms, regardless of belief and dogma, "if it walks like a God archetype, and quacks like a God archetype, then chances are, it's a God archetype."

Mahler was attempting to "psychically activate an archetype" in Jungian terms;
and the fact that his 'vague belief system' of spirit, as you call it (whatever it was ) was clothed in a ninth century Christian hymn, designed to invoke the Holy Spirit, is unsettling, to say the least.

It sounds like Mahler was playing with forces beyond his, or anyone's control.

Mysticism? Yes, this is 'magic' of sorts, just like it was in the ninth century, when Gregorian monks sang it not only as music, but as actual worship. This hymn was music for religious purposes, and it still retains that purpose, no matter what excuses one makes for Mahler. No wonder Adorno and other critics criticized this. Care to go into that aspect?

"Evoking spirits" can be an exceedingly dangerous business, and Mahler was playing with fire if he expected this use of the Latin hymn to be benign, or NOT to activate the belief systems of the audience who were not as "cosmopolitan" as he was, and who were ready to "chase out the Devil."

Deliver me, O Lord, from eternal death on that awful day, when the heavens shall be moved, and the earth; when thou shalt come to judge the earth by fire.
 
#6 ·
Whether its dangerous or frightening really depends on your point of view; of course when you liken it to demonic possession it appears very negative, but that presumes you belief in the spiritual on a certain level, if you don't then there is nothing to fear.

I've been to pentecostal churches and witnessed people apparently receiving the holy spirit, but something I've realised is that its very often the people who really want to experience the holy spirit who somehow end up having their wish fulfilled, (big surprise). Still; the entire point of the Pentecost was for the holy spirit to be given freely to all mankind; and ultimately it is that which allows us to form and govern our Churches without supernatural handouts from God the Father every other week (as seemed to be the running theme with Moses and his wandering Israelites). I don't pretend to fully understand it but I certainly think we have nothing to be afraid of from it.
 
#7 · (Edited)
People in groups wearing robes has always frightened me. And religion is best when used as a mirror to improve oneself. It's when this becomes a "projection" that it gets scary.
 
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#16 ·
Gustav Mahler was born in the sleepy southern Bohemian town Jihlava / Iglau. Educated people in Bohemia were looking at Vienna as the centre of culture and that means that things in Germany were actually happening behind their backs. I do not agree with the quickstep assumption, that people living in the Habsburg empire around 1900 were occupying themselves with Germany and all the nasty things that were boiling there. No, Germany was far away and Vienna was in love with itself. This is IMO still the case nowadays: I do not experience Vienna as a 'German' city, but simply as selfdefined 'Viennese'. Also with regard to religion the upper class of the Habsburg empire had an innate inclination towards syncretism. The Habsburg empire itself tried to keep many nations at peace under its wings with a syncretist political ideology. Gustav Mahler is a typical member of this upper class, combining Jewish, Christian 'Des Knaben Wunderhorn' and far oriental 'Lied von der Erde' materials into a delicate spiritual synchresis. I like Mahler's Jewishness in particular, which forces its way out with human voices praying aloud: "Veni Creator Spiritus" is one of these loud prayers, that somehow break out of the musical texture. In Des Knaben Wunderhorn there is a meeting with an angel: "Nein, du kannst mich nicht abweisen!!!" Such profound and true prayers keep ringing in my ears. Gustav Mahler adapted himself perfectly within the Viennese society, but never gave up this loud praying Jew. I thank the Lord for that.
 
#17 ·
Music is a powerful tool, and Mahler knew this. I laud his celebration of the Creator and 'the spirit' which can be awakened in each of us; but even as I witnessed the Pentecostal lady being 'transported' by the spirit, and speaking in tongues, I was at the same moment suspicious of the purity of her possible intent, and its effect on those surrounding her. "How presumptuous," I was left thinking, after it was over.

Mahler was using the power of music to convey something ostensibly sacred, but I think he should have been more cautious in trying to "evoke" or describe the 'creator spirit,' and should have adhered more closely to the Jewish belief that God cannot be named or described, much less 'channeled' through' a segment of any society, no matter how sophisticated or delicate this sensibility might have supposed to have been. He shoulda stuck to oriental poetry.
 
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#18 ·
There is an undercurrent of anti-Semitism in the Gospels. Don't get me wrong, I value the good the Bible has brought to many through the ages. The roots of Christian anti-Semitism are what I see as the real problem. Since Christianity and Judaism are so closely entwined, I'm simply saying that Mahler was rather naïve in invoking this sentiment concerning God as a spirit, in light of the context he was stuck in, which later, by the 1930s, proved to be ultimately more hostile than many composers thought. And beyond that, I listen to it and ignore the text and its implications, no matter how flexible. In this sense, it is really no different than many other religious works.

But I don't want to discuss theology; the Eighth Symphony concerns itself with matters of 'The Creator Spirit', and Mahler was free to express anything he wanted to, but in retrospect, it seems like he was trying too hard to be a part of the 'Western sacred music' tradition. The music itself should have been enough, and the religious ideological textual content (not the Goethe) could have been jettisoned, as far as I'm concerned.

The 'Western sacred music tradition,' as far as it reflects dogma and belief systems, is just as flawed as those systems are; and it behooves us to sift through and separate-out those elements of this tradition we wish to keep, even if it means completely ignoring the necessity and presence of texts and religious content.

There is no doubt for me that Mahler had sacred intent when he wrote this Eighth Symphony, and in that regard it is certainly a sincerely sacred work, in the tradition of all great Western sacred music.
 
#19 ·
There is an undercurrent of anti-Semitism in the Gospels. Don't get me wrong, I value the good the Bible has brought to many through the ages. The roots of Christian anti-Semitism are what I see as the real problem. Since Christianity and Judaism are so closely entwined, I'm simply saying that Mahler was rather naïve in invoking this sentiment concerning God as a spirit, in light of the context he was stuck in, which later, by the 1930s, proved to be ultimately more hostile than many composers thought. And beyond that, I listen to it and ignore the text and its implications, no matter how flexible. In this sense, it is really no different than many other religious works.

But I don't want to discuss theology; the Eighth Symphony concerns itself with matters of 'The Creator Spirit', and Mahler was free to express anything he wanted to, but in retrospect, it seems like he was trying too hard to be a part of the 'Western sacred music' tradition. The music itself should have been enough, and the religious ideological textual content (not the Goethe) could have been jettisoned, as far as I'm concerned.

The 'Western sacred music tradition,' as far as it reflects dogma and belief systems, is just as flawed as those systems are; and it behooves us to sift through and separate-out those elements of this tradition we wish to keep, even if it means completely ignoring the necessity and presence of texts and religious content.

There is no doubt for me that Mahler had sacred intent when he wrote this Eighth Symphony, and in that regard it is certainly a sincerely sacred work, in the tradition of all great Western sacred music.
1. I do not perceive the Gospels to be "Christian". The Gospels were written by Jews and originally meant for Jews who were familiar with the Scriptures. Thus the struggle between the followers of Rabbi Jesus and the followers of other Rabbis is an inner Jewish struggle. Also it is quite typical for Jews not to agree with each other (the Talmud reflects lots & lots of different outspoken opinions of various teachers).
2. The idea of anti-Semitism is often used as a foul mouthed kind of cursing. What we see in the Palestine under the Roman yoke are Jews in strife with Jews. Also the concept of 'Semitism' itself smells strange, it stinks: Arabs are said to belong to the 'Semitic' branch, Jews are said to belong to the same branch, so what does 'anti-Semitic' mean?
3. Gustav Mahler saw Goethe as the wished for intellectualised synchresis between factioned religions.
 
#38 ·
I stayed out of this thread until now because I thought you guys were serious, but now it looks like it's safe to insert a comment that if there is a ghost in Mahler's Eighth, why not? Everything else is in it already. I'm just surprised there's not a part for a choir of sixteen ghosts.
 
#41 ·
Mahler's use of choirs and overblown forces in presenting a pseudo-Christian Western 'religious' based message in his Eighth Symphony is disingenuous, in light of his 'distancing' himself from his own ethnic heritage, and his alignment with the prevailing religious sentiment in Vienna at that time. The whole thing seems insincere, and I raise a critical eyebrow at this symphony, certainly not one of his best.

I see it as 'cosmic justice' that he later resigned from his post and went to America to escape the prevailing attitude in Vienna.
 
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