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Which?

the Mass vs. the Messiah

15K views 61 replies 34 participants last post by  Rogerx 
#1 ·
Let's take these two head to head and see what happens.
 
#2 ·
I usually like Handel and I really enjoy some numbers from Messiah, but it doesn't work as a whole to me. Mass in B minor I find better in this respect (which is strange, given that the movements were basically assembled from very diverse sketches and fragments).


Best regards, Dr
 
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#7 · (Edited)
Except that it's not part of the thread title. :D

Haydn's masses are pithier than any choral work Bach or Handel wrote, so you know I'm a fan.

Hey Bach! Hey Handel!! Keep it pithy!! You think all I have to do is sit around all day for hours to listen???

I will now listen to Haydn's 40 minute Harmony Mass.:tiphat:
 
#11 ·
Fro starters Bach took a decade to put the B minor mass together, as he had no (single) performance of it in mind.

Whereas Handel wrote the Messiah in three weeks .... should I say more?

I love them both
 
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#27 ·
The Mass and it's not even a contest, a very unfair comparison.
 
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#42 ·
The mass is a quasi-liturgical work that was never in its entirety performed before the mid-19th century as there was no place for a huge solemn mass in Lutheran service and it would have been too long even for the Catholics.
Even in the mid-20th century when it had been established in the repertoire, scholars debated whether it really was ONE work at all, or rather a compilation. (I think by now most honor Bach's obvious effort in bringing together the different parts late in his life, re-using the Gratias as Dona nobis pacem is obviously meant to achieve some unity, despite different ensembles/choir parts (4, 5, 6 and 8) throughout). Nevertheless, it remains a paradoxical work (and this character is totally ignored by modern audiences who of course have a perfect right not to care). I think it is a bit uneven and despite the masterstroke of repeating the great Gratias/Dona nobis at the end, it peters out after the Sanctus (the Benedictus aria is a low point for me and the Osanna is just not up with the Sanctus but of course nothing is).
Sure, most of the choirs are as good as it gets and some arias are nice (Laudamus te and Qui sedes are probably my favorites) but some of the arias are not as good as many others by Bach, I think owing to the more "abstract" text (unlike "Erbarme dich" etc. from Passions). The overly systematic (and rather similar) "ring" structure of both Gloria and Credo and all the symbolism with 100 bars and 9 of this, 24 of that, and 7 voices etc. are something I found fascinating when I first encountered the piece at 17 or 18 (and I had a book analysing all that stuff) but it is also a bit stiff and makes the piece very long. (I have seen it 3 or 4 times in concert but on disc I usually split it up)

Messiah is a non-liturgical quasi-sacred work that is probably considered more "sacred" today than it would have been 250 years ago. If the b minor Mass is some "summa musicotheologica", Messiah is a brilliant popular evangelizing book, a christian worship Rock band ;) Unlike the little I have heard of modern popular Xtian music, I love Messiah. It also has a few lesser arias (I think "The trumpet shall sound" is just too long) but mostly it is one impressive "hit" after the other. (Admittedly, on discs I often split it up as well.) Jennens was apparently a pompous jerk but the libretto is brilliant.
It's not quite such an outlier as Bach's mass but also rather different from most other Handel oratorios in being not dramatic at all, having no acting persons. That might even have been a disadvantage back then but it is a clear advantage today because dramatic oratorios are strange hybrids and we are also not as familiar with details of the Judas Maccabaeus or Samson stories than with the core of the christian story that constitutes Messiah.
 
#44 ·
Messiah is a non-liturgical quasi-sacred work that is probably considered more "sacred" today than it would have been 250 years ago. If the b minor Mass is some "summa musicotheologica", Messiah is a brilliant popular evangelizing book, a christian worship Rock band ;) Unlike the little I have heard of modern popular Xtian music, I love Messiah. It also has a few lesser arias (I think "The trumpet shall sound" is just too long) but mostly it is one impressive "hit" after the other. (Admittedly, on discs I often split it up as well.) Jennens was apparently a pompous jerk but the libretto is brilliant.
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We have to realise that Messiah is a work to be performed in the theatre not during the church service. Why it was not very well received in England initially. As you say the libretto is brilliant. It was however somewhat far from the Christian rock band of today!
 
#46 ·
The B minor mass for me, but this work I prefer listening to just certain parts admittedly. I think it has some of the best music composed in it, but I don't listen to it as one work. The St. Matthew Passion works better in my view as one complete work, but just my opinion. They are both great masterpieces.

I have not listened to that much Handel, but I do certainly like some of his music, I respect him as a great composer. I haven't listened to the Messiah in a long time.
 
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