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Anti-Wagner Sentiment Outside the US?

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13K views 61 replies 31 participants last post by  Aries 
#1 ·
I apologize in advance to all who are sick of the Hitler-Wagner thing. I'm working on an article, and I'm wondering about the extent to which the knee-jerk "Wagner's music = Naziism" attitude (so prevalent in the US even in this day and age) is present in other countries. Australians, Germans, Russians, Koreans: is this an issue in your country? If so, how does it manifest?

My warmest thanks to all who've read this, and to all who reply.
 
#2 ·
Never been an issue in the United States so far... I haven't seen any protest yet at the Met regarding any Wagnerian production there recently.

On the other hand, John Adams' The Death of Klinghoffer seems to have taken its place here. Oh well :(.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Here in the US I don't think this is a significant issue among music lovers generally, but there have been books, articles, and films published of a highly tendentious nature which seek to keep the association of Wagner with Nazism (as well as the question of antisemitism in his operas) alive and kicking despite its desire to die a natural death. There remains, I think, a vague popular perception that Wagner, sometime before he died in 1883, wrote the soundtrack for "Hitler's Third Reich: The Movie!"

It's my impression that "the Wagner problem" means more to people in Germany, perhaps for obvious reasons. But I hope to be disabused by any Germans among us. Israel, of course, is a different story altogether. I think it's still illegal to perform Wagner at concerts there (against the wishes of many Jews who want to hear it, it should be said).

Someday the world may get past this.
 
#23 ·
Israel, of course, is a different story altogether. I think it's still illegal to perform Wagner at concerts there (against the wishes of many Jews who want to hear it, it should be said).

Someday the world may get past this.
Nein, mein liebe Herr, you are wholly incorrect. Listening to or performing Wagner in Israel is not, and has never been, illegal.

On the contrary, in 2000 the Israeli Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal to prevent a concert featuring Siegried's Idyll by the publicly-funded Rishon LeZion Symphony Orchestra. The concert went ahead as scheduled.

It is also widely known that Wagner's music has been broadcast on Israeli radio and television.

In 1981, Zubin Mehta led the Israeli Philharmonic in an encore of the "Liebestod" from Tristan.

In 2001, Barenboim conducted the Prelude from the same work in Jerusalem.

Some writings will misleadingly refer to an "unofficial boycott" or "ban" on performance of Wagner's works in public, but this simply reflects that the public at large is more against it than for it.

While there have been recent cases of planned performances being canceled as a result of public protests, that is simply democracy in action. Such performances are entirely legal and always have been as the above examples illustrate.

I would be interested to learn why you thought otherwise.
 
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#9 · (Edited)
My impression of tiny Denmark is that staging/performing Wagner involves absolutely no problem in itself, since his importance and relevance is quite "universally" acknowledged, and that there is also a general consensus as regards his unpleasant personality and traits of anti-semitism.

There´s quite a lot of scholarly debate as regards the nuances of this, however, but these basic views are not contested.

I am no opera specialist, though, and don´t know how it was in the immediate post-war years.
 
#10 ·
I don't claim to know everybody's views in Germany on this matter, but in the post-war years, the newly rebuilt Berlin State Opera opened with a performance of Die Meistersinger. That was in 1955, so it seems, Germans had no problem with performing Wagner even then. They appear to have more problems with performing his operas as he wanted them to be.
 
#12 ·
It's been my impression that Germans generally have a lot of respect for their Meister. You drive on the highway past Leipzig and see a giant billboard "Leipzig - The Birthplace of Richard Wagner". There are Wagner Streets, Wagner Squares and Wagner monuments all over the country, possibly more than those named after any other great composer (though I may well be biased in this since I have been noticing them more than others). Add to that places, monuments and street names that have a connection to the persons of Wagner's legendarium like the monument to Hagen in Worms. Wagner had a lot of love for his fellow countrymen, and they love him right back :)
 
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#13 ·
As Hannah Arendt (I think it was) pointed out those who spend too much time looking for the origins of the Nazi philosophy in the 19th century run the risk of being accused of trying to find excuses for the evils inflicted on Europe's Jews in the Holocaust.

Wagner lived at a time when anti-Semitism was widespread in Europe and influenced the attitude of many, in the Western democracies as well as areas where there was active persecution of Jews such as Tsarist Russia. Certainly his writings about Jews were not unique at the time. And we should remember that despite his anti-Semitism, he worked with many prominent Jewish musicians.
 
#17 ·
At my school the orchestra was going to play the tannhauser overture, but an individual who was not in the orchestra decided that they didn't want Wagner performed because of his anti-semitism, complained to the conductor/ music director, and it was pulled from the program....

To be honest, I doubt it's an issue outside the U.S., Germany and Israel.......in my view, the issue is silly - Wagner was a very complex individual, and the more complex someone is, the more likely it is that their personality will encompass things that are contradictory, morally questionable or socially deviant......if we policed every great creative genius for moral faults, we would exponge greatness from culture altogether.
 
#18 ·
I'd say that anti-Wagner sentiment does exist in the U.S., even if it isn't widespread. I know at least two people who won't have anything to do with Wagner. One of them is Jewish and the other is Catholic.

Most people encountering Wagner for the first time are unaware of who he was as an individual. It's only until they learn more about him that they might find reasons to dismiss his music. But this, in my experience, doesn't happen very often.
 
#20 ·
When I was a kid, none of my relatives would even sit inside a Mercedes, VW or BMW. Wagner? That was unheard of!

Yes. There probably still are some holdouts in the US who refuse to drive German cars or listen to Wagner, but dramatically fewer in number then when I was growing up.

I could have sworn at one performance of Götterdämmerung, the dude in front of me was eating a piece of gefilte fish.
 
#19 ·
Look, here's the thing-Wagner was not a saint (humans are incapable of sainthood), he was a racist, hateful little man. However, his music is good and so why not just enjoy the music and forget about all the political bullsh!t people have attached to it?
 
#24 ·
Israel is a special case because it was refuge to many holocaust survivors and now their children, who cannot and will not forget. The wounds are still fresh.

Don't expect the Overture to Die Meistersinger at the presidential election celebration in Tel Aviv.
 
#26 ·
Actually there are a lot of Jewish people who enjoy Wagner despite his political and personal history. They enjoy the music and myth and overlook a lot of the composer's aspects.
 
#27 ·
I never saw any anti-Wagner sentiment at any Ring performances, either. In fact, there was a vendor down front selling bagels and creamcheese, and kosher hot dogs. It's a long production, and it really helps to eat something.
 
#28 ·
Perhaps in Israel, one might expect a demonstration before or even during a performance of a Wagner opera.

However at the Met, with a heavy Jewish patronage, all has been quiet whenever i attended the Ring Cycle there.

Afterwards, they'd grab a nosh at the Carnegie Deli and drive their BMWs and Porsches back to Connecticut.
 
#29 ·
There have been some productions of Wagner that emphasize the Nazi connection very easily... Here is a recent performance from Tannhauser.



Apparently it was an interesting production causing people to go berserk and a few to get medical help.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/09/german-nazi-opera-cancelled-wagner-tannhauser

However, needlessly the production was pretty off-kilter. No connection between the plot and the production values. It wasn't even postmodern to say the least but two random things mashed together.

For me, not really a good way to do Wagner.
 
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#31 ·
Sometimes, you can't help but wonder if people realise that Wagner was long gone before the Nazis.

Is the concern because Wagner may have been anti-Semitic? Perhaps he was. It was much the the norm throughout Europe at the time. The Jewish communities were about as popular then as the Muslims are today. Society hasn't learned much over the years.

To answer the OP's question. It's not a big deal here. Wagner still fills the theatre.
 
#32 ·
Sometimes, you can't help but wonder if people realise that Wagner was long gone before the Nazis.

Is the concern because Wagner may have been anti-Semitic? Perhaps he was. It was much the the norm throughout Europe at the time. The Jewish communities were about as popular then as the Muslims are today. Society hasn't learned much over the years.

To answer the OP's question. It's not a big deal here. Wagner still fills the theatre.
Except that the Jews did not make it a habit to kill people who offend their religion.

As for whether people realize that Wagner lived long before the Nazis.... I think a lot of people don't even know there have been two world wars instead of one... or that ancient Egyptians were not muslim... or which century Napoleon lived in. The average level of historical knowledge nowadays is abominable.
 
G
#39 ·
I don't see any outrage over Wagner here in the U.S. - outside of these academic debates on internet forums. Wagner has become so mainstreamed here, it is a non-issue. His music has been sampled from things as varied as the Hollywood film, "Apocalypse Now," to even featuring prominently in an opera-themed Looney Tunes (Bugs Bunny) episode. Sure, most people may know that he was Hitler's favorite composer, but don't really fault him for that. Most people would probably recognize the "Flight of the Valkyries" and not in a million years link it to anything remotely anti-semitic.
 
#40 ·
Don't you think that the context of the 'Apocalypse Now' clip is suggestive of anti-Wagner sentiment in the US, or at least in this particular movie if we don't wish to extrapolate too extravagantly? It does seem to suggest that his music is a suitable accompaniment to genocide. Anyone wishing to divorce the reception of Wagner's music from our awareness of the man's less attractive side would probably not see this film as helpful.
 
#48 ·
Hey, the anti-Wagnerites have had their revenge: Mahler. Are they still not satisfied?
 
#49 ·
Hey, it's a good thing that Hitler didn't conduct! :lol: He did have artistic aspirations, you know.
 
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