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Does Classical Music Study Turn One Against Liberalism?

19K views 104 replies 29 participants last post by  mmsbls 
#1 ·
Do you think that after knowing classical music, it tends to make a person less liberal and more moderate or conservative?

As a moderate, I feel that liberalism, in the same way as communism, is slowly fading out. People like Jordan Peterson show how academia is turning against liberal ideas. I hold environmental views and championing the rights of the poor and working class, and most of my friends since my teen years could be called liberal. I don't like divisiveness around people where it need not be in the slightest way, and so I don't use political terms to talk about human beings. I don't think that the terms liberal and conservative are real world descriptions, much like the way some philosophers say that language cannot talk about metaphysical ideas accurately.

So, not asking people to come out saying they are liberal or conservative just if the values that it takes to listen to and even play classical music has less of a chance in a liberal mindset than conservative.
 
#2 · (Edited)
Do you think that after knowing classical music, it tends to make a person less liberal and more moderate or conservative?
For me, it's made me more liberal and conservative at the same time as I've gotten older. You can still be wild and openly adventurous to the new and untried and still have conservative standards for what you accept. Music is called one of the liberal arts, not one of the conservative arts. One of the conservative arts seems to be trying to get rid of the liberal arts because it costs too much or it's not practical like a hammer and nails. But who asks why music is considered one of the liberal arts in the first place? People can't do without it but they never think about why it was taught and considered important as part of classical education. The liberal side is the freedom of creative expression, and the conservative side is that everything has its limits. Both can intensify in interest over the years and work together.
 
#4 ·
For me, it's made me more liberal and conservative at the same time as I've gotten older. You can still be wild and openly adventurous to the new and untried and still have conservative standards for what you accept. Music is called one of the liberal arts, not one of the conservative arts. One of the conservative arts seems to be trying to get rid of the liberal arts because it costs too much or it's not practical like a hammer and nails. But whoever asks why music is considered one of the liberal arts in the first place? People can't do without it but they never think about why it was taught and considered important as part of classical education. The liberal side is the freedom of creative expression, and the conservative side is that everything has its limits. Both can intensify in interest over the years and work together.
Well said, Larkenfield. Thanks for thinking of that.
 
#3 ·
I have loved classical music my whole life, and the older I get the more I love it. I have been a liberal/progressive my whole life and the older I get the more progressive are my beliefs. I'm not sure if there is less of a chance in a liberal mindset to appreciate classical music. One of the constants in so much classical music is beauty. I think a liberal mindset would be just as attracted to the beauty in classical music as a conservative mindset. Perhaps, the mathematical qualities inherent in classical music appeal more to a conservative than a liberal, but I'm not sure I could tell you why. I think Albert Einstein was a liberal as well as a mathematician and musician. Albert Schweitzer loved Bach and loved people, putting him in my liberal column. Liberals are more concerned with social issues involved with raising awareness of poverty, hunger, pollution, climate crises, war and economic justice. Still, I would not be inclined to say that liberals don't have time for classical music. The music of Bach, Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven doesn't have to be elitist and out of touch with social justice. Gustavo Dudamel and the Simon Bolivar Youth Symphony Orchestra may be a prime example of how classical music literally plays right into the liberal agenda. Maybe?
 
#5 ·
I do not understand why you would expect it to have any such effect. I live in a conservative as heck state and all of the Musicologist staff I've known at my university have been liberal, and I am, too.

In fact, my study on the history of classical music and how women were kept out of orchestras for the most absurd of reasons (literally the "She is distracting me" argument, back in the mid 1800s) and just everything else about the history of women through my studying has made me more of a feminist. Yes, a modern feminist.
 
#8 ·
I think one might take an art history stance and come against some tenets of liberalism. Take a look at this video for reasons why.
What is post-modernist influence on art and how has classical music usually not taken them seriously? It would be destroyed if it did.


Stephen Hicks - Postmodern Resentment
 
#9 · (Edited)
I think an erroneous distinction has been made here. Compassion and sympathy has been recast as 'weakness' and identifying with 'lack' of being (in the great Western tradition of war and domination of 'primitive' cultures).

The truth is, 'being' is achievable without being assertive or climbing mountains. It's a different kind of receptive being.
 
#13 · (Edited)


I don't think he is alone. One can make a distinction between socialism, liberalism, and post-modernism, but to some academics, they are all of the same stripe.

Have you heard of the expression Neo-liberalism? Chomsky was against that very early on. He's also against post-modernism.

 
#14 · (Edited)
"Liberal arts programs typically focus on certain academic areas. For example, languages and linguistics are a field of liberal arts that teaches students to become interpreters, classical translators, and historical linguistics. On the other hand, literature is one of the most popular areas of the liberal arts. Therefore, students will obtain a degree in literature, such as American or British Literature, if they want to become a teacher. Liberal arts students can also concentrate on music, sculpture, fine arts and performing arts."

The liberal arts are not the conservative arts by definition. They are related to the humanities rather than objectified science and math. The humanities have a strong subjective element related to the quality, enjoyment, freedom of life, interpretation and self-expression.
 
#15 · (Edited)
With all due respect you don't know of what a liberal education consists.

Here is the syllabus from one of the best (and very few) colleges in this country offering a liberal arts education. Please note the abundance of scientific and mathematical writings:

https://thomasaquinas.edu/a-liberating-education/syllabus
 
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#18 ·
The more I've listened to classical music - or, I should say, the more classical music I've listened to - the broader my tastes have become, and the less time I have for "golden age" thinking. It's clear to me that music has always been in a state of evolution, and that there's no single set of rules by which all music can be judged (and never has been). So one (the individual, and society as a whole) has to embrace the notion of diversity, even if one doesn't necessarily embrace all the diverse things within that notion. If this earns me the label of "post-modernist", or "liberal", or whatever, then so be it. I experience no "post-modern resentment", only joy.
But equally clearly there are people who, the more classical music they've listened to, the more they become convinced that only a particular subset of it is of any worth, to them and by extension to society.

As in music, so in life. But I don't think music makes one more liberal or more conservative; one's tastes in music and politics both reflect an underlying personality.
 
#21 ·
This may be stretching things a bit, but I'm going to give it a try:

Isn't it possible that classical music helps to make one more liberal, more progressive, more socially conscious and more responsible in how we treat people and care about people? Some of the most vibrant arts cultures are found in the European Union, with specific emphasis on northern European countries like Belgium and the Netherlands, and Scandinavian countries like Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Norway. These are some of the most socialist countries in the world, and pretty much they all have thriving economies. Yes, taxes are very high, but the aim is to create greater equality while addressing critical needs of the people. This style of socialism truly values its entire citizenry, and as well, culture and the arts are robust. I would be so bold as to say that classical music imbues our spirits with a greater concern for our fellow human beings, environment, flora and fauna.
 
#22 ·
Do you think that after knowing classical music, it tends to make a person less liberal and more moderate or conservative?

As a moderate, I feel that liberalism, in the same way as communism, is slowly fading out. People like Jordan Peterson show how academia is turning against liberal ideas. I hold environmental views and championing the rights of the poor and working class, and most of my friends since my teen years could be called liberal. I don't like divisiveness around people where it need not be in the slightest way, and so I don't use political terms to talk about human beings. I don't think that the terms liberal and conservative are real world descriptions, much like the way some philosophers say that language cannot talk about metaphysical ideas accurately.

So, not asking people to come out saying they are liberal or conservative just if the values that it takes to listen to and even play classical music has less of a chance in a liberal mindset than conservative.
Certainly in the UK the universities are stuffed with liberal academics of left wing sympathies
 
#26 ·
Do you think that after knowing classical music, it tends to make a person less liberal and more moderate or conservative? As a moderate, I feel that liberalism, in the same way as communism, is slowly fading out. People like Jordan Peterson show how academia is turning against liberal ideas. I hold environmental views and championing the rights of the poor and working class, and most of my friends since my teen years could be called liberal. I don't like divisiveness around people where it need not be in the slightest way, and so I don't use political terms to talk about human beings. I don't think that the terms liberal and conservative are real world descriptions, much like the way some philosophers say that language cannot talk about metaphysical ideas accurately. So, not asking people to come out saying they are liberal or conservative just if the values that it takes to listen to and even play classical music has less of a chance in a liberal mindset than conservative.
To answer your question, I doubt there is any correlation between musical preferences and political attitudes or that listening to a specific genre can change your political orientation.

I would be hard to categorize either as pure liberal or conservative, because I am ecclectic and sometimes lean towards liberalism and sometimes towards conservatism. I am not sure academia is turning against liberalism. I am in academia myself and view the American liberal academia with suspicion, especially the soft sciences and junk sciences such as gender studies, black studies etc. who contribute nothing to real science and are just political organizations for feminists and other professional victims. On the other hand I am an environmentalist, but disagree with Greenpeace etc. about nuclear energy, which is the cleanest form of energy we are able to produce.
 
#29 ·
William Osborne stated the following from the article linked above:

Germany's public arts funding, for example, allows the country to have 23 times more full-time symphony orchestras per capita than the United States, and approximately 28 times more full-time opera houses. [1] In Europe, publicly funded cultural institutions are used to educate young people and this helps to maintain a high level of interest in the arts. In America, arts education faces constant cutbacks, which helps reduce interest.

Aside from the previous discussions concerning liberal vs. conservative, why aren't we doing what Germany does in order to support the arts?
 
#36 · (Edited)
"I love sports too, but I love culture more..."

Perhaps others feel differently, or perhaps their ideas of "culture" are not the same as yours. Do you really want to take their money and spend it to try to bring them around to your way of thinking?

There's plenty of that going on already, I don't think we need more of it.

Also: If we had 23 times as many orchestras, and 28 times as many opera houses (as Mr. Osborne suggests) do you really think that would change anything? For the most part, we have trouble filling the ones we have!
 
#37 ·
"
I love sports too, but I love culture more
..." Perhaps others feel differently, or perhaps their ideas of "culture" are not the same as yours. Do you really want to take their money and spend it to try to bring them around to your way of thinking?

There's plenty of that going on already, I don't think we need more of it.

Also: If we had 23 times as many orchestras, and 28 times as many opera houses (as Mr. Osborne suggests) do you really think that would change anything? Think about it.
Perhaps you're right. It would indeed be a shame to see dozens of empty concert halls. But, why does it work in Germany/Europe and not here?
 
#45 ·
Isn't this just another reason to have public support for the arts? It hadn't even occurred to me before, but it is encouraging.
According to the National Endowment for the Arts, a rich cultural exposure gives an economic boost to the country.

Report 3: The Arts and Cultural Production Satellite Account (ACPSA)

The ACPSA, a partnership between the NEA and the Department of Commerce's Bureau of Economic Analysis, is the first federal effort to provide an in-depth analysis of the arts and cultural sector's contributions to current-dollar gross domestic product (GDP), a measure of the final dollar value of all goods and services produced in the United States. The revised estimates reveal the arts are a bigger driver of GDP and jobs than previously estimated. Among the new estimates are:

In 2012, arts and cultural production contributed more than $698 billion to the U.S. economy, or 4.32 percent to the U.S. Gross Domestic Product, more than construction ($586.7B) or transportation and warehousing ($464.1B).
4.7 million workers were employed in the production of arts and cultural goods, receiving $334.9 billion in compensation.
Arts and cultural spending has a ripple effect on the overall economy, boosting both commodities and jobs. For example, for every 100 jobs created from new demand for the arts, 62 additional jobs are also created.

The full article is linked below:

https://www.arts.gov/news/2015/surprising-findings-three-new-nea-reports-arts
 
#55 ·
I was researching salaries of orchestra members across the USA. The Big Five orchestras - New York Philharmonic, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Cleveland Orchestra, Philadelphia Orchestra, and the LA Philharmonic - all compensate their players pretty well. Unfortunately, other fine orchestras across this country have relatively low salaries in the 40K to 50K range. Considering all the years of intense study and practice, all the many years of music school classes and private lessons, and the enormous cost of this education to the musician, this is just another reason to boost public funding of the arts to help some of our most gifted and talented citizens. I do not subscribe to the Darwinian values of our runaway capitalist system that rewards those who make the rich richer. The contributions of classical musicians is invaluable and should be rewarded accordingly. (I am not a musician other than having an average voice and having sung in amateur choirs for decades, so no conflict of interest here. I am simply an advocate.) The concept of "supply and demand" is a bitter pill. We can do so much more for ourselves than we are doing. As Room2201974 so rightly implied, let's put our money to good use and support the best of humanity while replacing that which is destructive.
 
#58 · (Edited)
I'm a hard core progressive.

My love for classical music has had no effect on my political leanings.

Oh, and Jordan Peterson is kind of a joke.

He's lied about the effects the new Canadian law, Bill C-16 will have.

He's claimed that the only way someone can stop smoking is to have had a 'spiritual experience'.

He's claimed that the only way to be moral is to be a theist, and that if an atheist is behaving ethically and morally, they are actually a theist.

He has so distorted the meaning of term "religious", that is is almost useless. Peterson, "religious is what you act out". Everyone acts out. So everyone is religious. Seriously?!

He's claimed that anyone that has taken psilocybin mushrooms, and have claimed to have had a 'spiritual experience, has actually had a 'spiritual experience'. He does not allow for the possibility that they have simply misinterpreted their altered consciousness to believe they had a 'spiritual experience'.
 
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