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Was Beethoven more of a Classical or a Romantic composer?

  • Classical

    Votes: 51 49.5%
  • Romantic

    Votes: 52 50.5%

Beethoven: Classical or Romantic?

40K views 93 replies 59 participants last post by  hpowders 
#1 ·
Beethoven's music contains ideas related to both the classical and romantic era, but which style do you think he most represents? Of course it's easy to say "a bit of both" but I want to know which side of the classical/romantic spectrum you think Beethoven lies, even if it's only slightly one way or the other. Cheers.
 
#3 ·
It's difficult to say which he was in general. There's no such a rule that says that each composer must write only in one style. However, if we'd talk about individual works it would be a lot easier. I think the third symphony was such a radical departure from Haydn and Mozart that I would definately count it as a romantic work. And I guess that would apply to the most of his influental and famous works. But when it comes to sheer number of classical vs. romantic compositions, there might be more of the former than latter (I'm not a Beethoven expert so I won't say anything about that). I think for example, the fourth symphony by Mendelssohn sounds more classical than Eroica even though Mendelssohn is always counted as a romantic composer.
 
#20 ·
This^. I think he is firmly rooted in the classic period, even in his late quartets, but at times he skips over the romantic and heads into what modern might have become if he hadn't already come along.

Some composers live on the cusp of breaking styles such as Monteverdi or Stamitz. Their lot is to radically experiment with new material and ideas. On the other hand some composers live at the height of a major stylistic trend like Mozart or Bach. Their lot as such is to perfect and refine the current stylistic fashion.

FC
I have made observations like this one before and also claimed that Beethoven was both types, (both revolutionary and perfecting what had come before). I am honored and gratified that you have the same conclusions. I'm just a music fan.

Im very new at this: Maybe if you can explain the difference, I will give my opinion.
I'll make a stab at answering this, but bear in mind I'm no scholar. The quick version, as I understand it:

Classical (or the classic period) is more concerned with the overall form of a piece. What key it is in, what keys it migrates to, and how it returns home to the key it started in, and so forth. There are certain forms that must be more or less followed, as the poems that are sonnets or haikus must follow a certain form. Only when you have forms such as these and the listener knows more or less what to expect, only then can a composer like Beethoven (or Haydn) surprise us by setting up an expectation and then doing something entirely unexpected instead.

Romanticism that came a little later tends to throw form out the window (not entirely, but let's say it's not as important) and creates music that strives to describe a scene, story, or emotion. That's a rash generalization but the best I could do at the moment.

So if I could replace music with words the different periods might become something like this:

Baroque period = extremely complicated and highly decorative crossword puzzles.
Classical period = precise beautiful sonnets and haikus
Romantic period = potboiler epic novels.

:D
I know I'll get flayed for that.
 
#10 ·
In form, Beethoven is mostly Classical, but he stretched the limits of classical form so far that one is tempted to call it something else. More specifically, he made everything longer and more complicated.. but he generally didn't stray from the fundamental formulas. Except with his very last sonatas and quartets.. those may definitely be placed in the realm of Romantic.
 
#13 ·
I teach an orchestration class on Saturdays and I start the introduction to romantic orchestration with the 2nd mvt. from Beethoven's 6th symphony. This is probably the first real romantic piece ever written (1808). The attempt to express not just the images connected with emotions and man's interaction with nature (not his dominion over it which is a Classical ideal) but rather the sensations conected with emotions. The titles of the movements are clearly Romantic (the Awakening of Peasant Feelings on Arriving in the Countryside etc) and programatic. Berlioz, 22 years later, would bring this concept to a peak with his Symphony Fantastique.

This is not to say that Beethoven was never Classical. In fact there is little to discern between his first symphony and Mozart's last six symhonies apart from a slightly more terse use of melodic material. An I would stress that he did not make a sudden change to Romanticism; his 8th symphony, for instance, is very classical in style.

Some composers live on the cusp of breaking styles such as Monteverdi or Stamitz. Their lot is to radically experiment with new material and ideas. On the other hand some composers live at the height of a major stylistic trend like Mozart or Bach. Their lot as such is to perfect and refine the current stylistic fashion.

I didn't vote because I'd vote for both and that's the same as not voting.

FC
 
#14 ·
I teach an orchestration class on Saturdays and I start the introduction to romantic orchestration with the 2nd mvt. from Beethoven's 6th symphony. This is probably the first real romantic piece ever written (1808). The attempt to express not just the images connected with emotions and man's interaction with nature (not his dominion over it which is a Classical ideal) but rather the sensations conected with emotions. The titles of the movements are clearly Romantic (the Awakening of Peasant Feelings on Arriving in the Countryside etc) and programatic...Some composers live on the cusp of breaking styles such as Monteverdi or Stamitz...
I didn't vote because I'd vote for both and that's the same as not voting.
When, oh when will we get one of those "I-am-not-worthy" emoticons?? If we had one, I'd use it here!

Thanks for this, PostMinimalist!:cool:
 
#24 ·
Interesting analogies Weston.. but I tend to think of the Classical styles as the puzzle-type. When listening to a symphony by Haydn or Mozart, one can follow along by listening for the main theme, then the second theme, then whatever craziness happens in the Development, then listening for how the main theme comes back in the recapitulation... the mental processes involved are really quite similar to solving a crossword-puzzle, or dare I say, a Sudoku puzzle. :D Because like those puzzles, those classical composers follow essentially the same underlying rules (Sonata-Allegro form) for the first (and sometimes last) movements of every symphony, and typically the smaller genres also. Then, of course, Beethoven comes along and now you have no idea what to expect..
 
#27 ·
Not every piece starts with a sonata allegro though, sometimes things were more mixed up (eg Haydn). Beethoven wasn't the first to do that. So arguably Beethoven's experimentations were as much within the development of the classical tradition than an antithesis to it. The classical style developed rather than stood still, arguably its influence has never gone away.
 
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#29 ·
I've always considered Beethoven the first Romantic Composer! Sure it's hard to be first when everyone before and around you are "classical," and he had to start his base as "classical" like anyone else. But he did have a Romantic temperament which he developed himself and which became his identity. Early Romantic era composer, if I were to be specific.
 
#30 ·
I watched Kenneth Clark's Civilisation recently, and on the part about the Romantic movement he regarded Beethoven as the archetypal Romantic composer and, along with Byron's poetry, as the epitome of Romanticism. Not my words, the words of Kenneth ******* Clark.

This reminds me of the hard rock/heavy metal revisionism. Led Zep, Uriah Heep, Budgie, UFO, even Motorhead and Black Sabbath on occasion are now often being described as hard rock, even though they were all once described as heavy metal. This is the same thing in the Beethoven matter. Fans of the music comparing the music of the past with the music that succeeded it, noticing the difference and recategorising it accordingly. Jelly Roll Morton is still jazz even if he doesn't sound like Louis Armstrong.

Also, I'm normally terrible at recognising different composers from the same period unless I'm very familiar with their style, but I can pick out a Beethoven piece quite easily. I would agree with some that Schubert was a Romantic composer too, although Beethoven became one when little Franz was still a rosy cheeked sprog.
 
#32 ·
I've always seen Beethoven as a classical era composer. Certainly, there are touches of Romanticism (Tempest Sonata anyone?) but considering that I still consider the first half of Schubert as classical era too...I have to lump Beethoven in that category too. Definitely, he was moving well into Romanticism. It would have been interesting to see what Beethoven would have done if he grew up in the Romantic period. The face of classical music today could be very very different.
 
#37 ·
Beethoven followed the classical language. And even though he inspired the Romantics, he never wrote music as personal emotional portraits as the Romantics do nor does he share their chromaticism. He is clearly a classical era composer.

Another poster pointed towards the 6th as an example of programmatic and therefore romantic music. But programmatic elements have existed for along time, you may find them even in Bach's cantatas. The sixth symphony simply portrays a pastoral scene objectively, and done in the classical style, and is therefore not Romantic.
 
#41 ·
But isn't the question whether or not programmatic music was at home in Classical Era compositions? The Classical Era was, after all, a comparitively short period in time.

I also decline to vote because you can't choose between one. Beethoven was mainly a Classical era composer, but I think that some of his works (especially the later ones) go beyond that. And it isn't just a question of form, but of attitude. I have a mental image of Classical era compositions being generally very proper, civilised and pleasant to listen to. When I think of Haydn, i think of a man who wrote very pleasant music, but when I think of Beethoven, I think of a man who wrote dramatic music. And part of that drama is the essence of what Romanticism is all about.

Furthermore, I think it was a natural progression from beauty/form to drama when orchestras become bigger. The potential for compositions with a bigger BANG! than they had before was exploited by the Romantics and by Beethoven. I think Beethoven explored his creativity in whatever way he felt like and was not really worried a lot about tradition. Do have we have any records of Beethoven's opinion on Romantic works during his lifetime? I assume he would have read music scores of other composers.

One question, how does the 5 movements of the Pastoral Symphony fit in with a Classicist? What about the choral section of the ninth with all its expression and declamations for a Brotherhood of Man? And what about the Grosse Fuge? I don't see that as anywhere near a Classical Era composition. There is also the idea of dissonance being used more in Romantic works.

To be honest, it might be more useful to define Romanitic compositions. The extreme is highly programmatic music, but it might be well worth noting that all of the Romantic composers also wrote absolute music. How do we define a Classical Era symphony as being different from a Romantic Era one? How does this apply (or not apply) to Beethoven?
 
#39 ·
Every you dumb peoples what you know about romantic romantic are about love krove beethovem don't write love songs he not romantic this is romantic music:

nov ewery body sink with me NA NA NA
No, "romantic romantic" is not about love (and the other word that you used), it's about telling a story. It comes from a French "roman" which stands for "novel". (How ironic, maybe I'll ge to it one day.) But you seem to be too drunk right now anyway, so give it a rest. :)

And I am not gonna sink with you, what are you crazy? :D
 
#42 ·
Replying to an old thread here, but...

I believe Beethoven was mostly a Classical composer. His early period was definitely Classical in style. His middle period works are sometimes considered Romantic because of their heroic and expressive quality, however, I believe here that Beethoven's fundamental philosophy was completely different from that of the Romantics. He was brought up during the Enlightenment--the age of reason and objectivity--and wrote music reflecting the emotions of humanity as a whole. Contrast this with the subjectivity and more 'personal' idealism of the Romantic era. Clearly, while there exist parallels in musical style, the intentions were quite different. As for late period Beethoven, I don't think much of it was comparable to anything in the Romantic repertoire.

Summing up these conclusions from each of his three periods, Beethoven leans more towards the Classical side for me.
 
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