You may find Harold Powers' landmark paper "Tonal Types and Modal Categories in Renaissance Polyphony" helpful. It's lengthy and somewhat technical but not, I think, unnecessarily so.

https://edisciplinas.usp.br/pluginf...t/1/tonal types and modal categories in renaissance polyphony (POWERS 1981).pdf

 

Thank you for that link, Rick. The paper seems really interesting. It, together with the Jeppesen book I'm currently reading, will make for a nice Saturday reading session.

I see the paper seems to also address some of the confusion/contradictions I've read regarding the reciting tones/dominants and the scale degrees of internal cadences according to the mode (what a mess when authors contradict each other, starting with Zarlino).

Do you think I would find examples of what I mentioned in the OP in secular music of the time? If so, I'd appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction and time.

Anyone please feel free to post an example of the most "out there" vocal Medieval or Renaissance work you can think of. Something that seems ahead (or behind) its time.

Thank you!

 

Modal variety is about 12 groups according to Glarean`s "Dodekachordon" treatise, but there had been some biases against certain modes among late Renaissance composers in sacred compositions, most prefer Lydian or Hypolydian modes.

 

But that's the thing. And the exact source of my confusion...

They may have intended to write in Lydian in theory, or in accordance to tradition, but in reality they were writing in Ionian or Hypoionian. Even if they cadenced on the usual Lydian scale degrees, the moment they automatically took its flavour tone and made it flat, and then cadence in an authentic cadences, it still sounds and looks like F or Bb Ionian.

As far as I can see, this situation seems to know no borders either, and the modes, as originally intended, simply faded out of custom from the beginning until the end of the Renaissance, sadly, without having been really exploited with their flavour-mood degrees untainted.
Perhaps that sound seemed quite "dated" to them?

I'd be delighted to find a composer who kept Lydian's Bs natural. Or Mixolydian's Fs flat, etc.

Tonight I'll try Spain at around early 1400s...

 

This is a perfect example of what I'm looking for (adjusting for time, in its Medieval/Renaissance equivalent, of course).

Please listen to this. I think you'll like it (it gets very interesting towards the middle).

 

This is a perfect example of what I'm looking for (adjusting for time, in its Medieval/Renaissance equivalent, of course

Fantastic! I love it. Thanks for posting it.

 

Maybe go further back in history? Go medieval Machaut! He survived the Black Death! Late renaissance moved towards major/minor tonality, so earlier music probably suits your ideas better...sorry you said "renaissance"...

 

Maybe go further back in history? Go medieval Machaut! He survived the Black Death! Late renaissance moved towards major/minor tonality, so earlier music probably suits your ideas better...sorry you said "renaissance"...

Kjetil: Wow! I confess I'm not very familiar with Machaut, but thank you for posting such a blunt example. I love it!
Another wow for what happens from 00:35 to 00:40. That was unexpected.

And it seems you're totally right>
I need to go a little further back in time. If I want to find something with the colours/bluntness of your example, BUT with the sophistication and finesse of the Renaissance, perhaps I should focus on "transition" composers say, from 1370 to 1450.

Fantastic! I love it. Thanks for posting it.

My pleasure, my friend! If you liked it, wait 'till you listen to this one... It's based on the exact same idea, but 10 times more complex, dissonant and interesting. Listen to those jaw-dropping cadences!

If anyone knows of an example from those times resembling this in any way, I'd be all-ears.

 

The simple explanation is that the emergence of tonality was a gradual process beginning as early as the late Medieval era.

 

Agreed.
It's just that I was expecting to see more of the gradual component of the process. It's still too early for me to come to any conclusions, of course, but my impression thus far is that this long process towards tonality was in at least 2 stages:

1.- The use of Musica Ficta at the cadences started obscuring the colour-mood of the other modes. This happened apparently very quickly and not very gradually (or else, there would be many examples of pure Dorian/Lydian/Mixo cadences all over the place).
2.- The above caused this slow gradual tendency towards the unification of major and minor and culminated with the tendency to treat them in dominant-tonic ways. The increased use of chromaticism was gradual and clear.

Am I making sense? Would you agree with that?

I do not know how many pieces of works you have actually heard and studied with the scores...

Not nearly enough, that's for sure.
But it really annoys me that I haven't even found them in any modern modal counterpoint text books either (the Benjamin, the Schubert, the Jeppesen, the Gauldin, etc). They all mention the usual cadence types, but the most exotic they mention is the "phrygian cadence", not Lydian or Dorian cadences, as far as I see.

But that's exactly why I came here to TC... The collective knowledge in here is impressive, so I'm sure someone will be kind enough to let me know if I'm understanding things incorrectly or if I'm drawing premature conclusions in my relatively short experience with this magnificent music

A simple> "Hey, GYW, you'll find examples of the cadences you want in xxx work of xxx composer. Check it out! and go back to your piano!" would certainly be so appreciated

pure modality is a novelty to me, a certain chromaticism could alter modal character locally, if you mean late Renaissance period, like from 1570-1610s, then sure it was intermingled with some chromatical progresses exemplified by Cipriano de Rore, Luzzaschi, Gesualdo, as a result of madrigal influence.

Towards modal coherence: mode and chromaticism in Carlo Gesualdo's two settings of O vos omnes
Zhuqing (Lester) Hu
Published:
29 January 2015

Thank you for that info.

I'll check it out. I have books 3 & 4 of the Zarlino in English cued up for reading. I suppose I'll also get the Glarean "Dodekachordon" you mentioned above. Thanks

 

But that's exactly why I came here to TC... The collective knowledge in here is impressive, so I'm sure someone will be kind enough to let me know if I'm understanding things incorrectly or if I'm drawing premature conclusions in my relatively short experience with this magnificent music

We TC people are more like listeners rather than skilled technicals here, but you are welcome to discuss anyway. I would be proud if I can of any help even if unintentionally. I still recommend you to listen some Palestrina, notably known as the savior of the polyphonic music when the Council of Trent was considering banning polyphony from the church. You do provide some vital points of interest, I would also like to investigate in this direction about the modal characters of both sacred and secular music from Renaissance.

 

I still recommend you to listen some Palestrina, notably known as the savior of the polyphonic music when the Council of Trent was considering banning polyphony from the church.

I didn't know that... Wow! Can you imagine if they had passed that resolution?!? They would've halted their own musical progress for decades, if not centuries! It would've been the opposite of a renaissance!

You do provide some vital points of interest, I would also like to investigate in this direction about the modal characters of both sacred and secular music from Renaissance.

Yes! I think it's quite interesting.

I think you will enjoy this next piece:
It starts medieval-sounding, and then it evolves into this gorgeous polyphonic writing, with the ending totally reminiscent of the early Renaissance, but with those strong modal flavours I am trying to find, as mentioned above in my OP.
Sorry to keep posting modern bands looking into the past as opposed to performing pieces from past masters, but Lisa Gerard is just wonderful and beautifully it exemplifies what I want to find. I don't know how she comes up with this great stuff; if she writes it herself, she's a master of the style.

The treatment of dissonance at 02:40 is just sublime>

Listen to those awesome mini-canons at the unison in this (and the above) piece>

 

As hinted in the OP, Phrygian works tend to preserve more of their flavor because raised leading tones at cadences on the final of the mode aren't possible.

Before getting excited about the possibility of greater modal purity in Machaut and other Ars Nova composers, remember their favoring of the double leading tone cadence, in which two tones are altered by ficta at many cadences.

 

Hi, Edward.
The other day I was listening to Du Fay, and some of his endings made me stop what I was doing, like "Whoa… what just happened in there?". They reminded me of your post.

I was not familiar with the term "double-leading tone", but I take it this is what you mean, yes?

(cued to the moment)


If so, would you characterise them as a total attention-grabber? Like a bright blurb of color coming almost out of nowhere and wonderfully old-sounding?


I wonder if it would be correct to view those cadences as some kind of last Lydian vestige? So far I keep seeing them in the scores mostly like this ( in modern terms):
Antepenultima: I (or i6) - Penultima: vii (or vii6) - Ultima I (with no 3rd). The vii - I has a clear Lydian flavour (with the Fi - Sol).

Or would you say they are simply more like a contrapuntal attempt to strengthen the 5th degree by approaching it from a half-step below?? (sort of like with the contrapuntal origin of the augmented sixth chords by approaching the dominant from above and below by half-step).



It's curious how these double-leading tone cadences fell out of usage seemingly so suddenly and quick after Du Fay, just like the untainted modal cadences (I've been finding some, but almost always as internal cadences and quite subtly).
I'll post a few nice examples of pure modal cadences as I find them.

 

Yes, Yuja, the example you gave is a double leading tone cadence. It doesn't have anything to do with Lydian mode. In Lydian, in fact, the B is often flatted.

One effect of the double leading tone cadence is that by raising the 4th degree it avoids a tritone that otherwise might be formed with the (other) leading tone. I'm not sure if strengthening the 5th degree had anything to do with the rationale.