I think that's a good thing.... I've only had the time to keep up with the higher level recommendations from this thread...
This apparently isn't true. Zarlino, in his Istitutione harmoniche III, The Art of Counterpoint (1558) describes (what we would call) full triads in root position and first inversion as perfect harmonies which the composer should strive to use whenever possible in writing counterpoint. He was codifying the practice of the preceding generation.Definitely find dissonances in Bach that are outside of Renaissance practice - you only began to hear the common dom 7 chord cadence in Baroque music, the Baroque is also where the dim 7 chord appears
Renaissance music did not really have the concept of chords, which appeared in the baroque
What you are missing is that there were no full scores in the Medieval and Renaissance. Composers wrote out each individual part, on sections of pages in a large choir manuscript.This apparently isn't true. Zarlino, in his Istitutione harmoniche III, The Art of Counterpoint (1558) describes (what we would call) full triads in root position and first inversion as perfect harmonies which the composer should strive to use whenever possible in writing counterpoint. He was codifying the practice of the preceding generation.
Time to see the doctor.lkascjlz;svcns\zlv nmjxs\z
I'm a musicologist who has studied this music and the theory treatises about it, and I've written motets in this style. What you're missing - well, a part of what you're missing - is that the way parts were written for performance has nothing to do with how they were composed. Your conclusions are wholly incorrect. Composers could compose at a keyboard or on erasable slates before copying parts. And in theory treatises they wrote examples in score format. In the Renaissance composers definitely were aware of the chords resulting from all the parts they were writing, as is clear from the writing of theorist/composers like Gioseffo Zarlino, a student of Adrian Willaert, who wrote:What you are missing is that there were no full scores in the Medieval and Renaissance. Composers wrote out each individual part, on sections of pages in a large choir manuscript.
Part 1 | Part 3
Part 2 | Part 4
The singers would gather around the book and sing their individual parts. It was completely linear, any harmonic coincidences were the result of the lines coming together, not conceived of as "chords" by the composer.
I wish MR was here to see this.In the Renaissance composers definitely were aware of the chords resulting from all the parts they were writing, as is clear from the writing of theorist/composers like Gioseffo Zarlino, a student of Adrian Willaert, who wrote:
"A composition may be called truly perfect when, in every change of chord, ascending or descending, there are heard all of those consonances whose components give a variety of sound. Where such consonances are heard, the harmony is truly perfect. .......
Those texts were written a century at least after the music was composed. They reflect the thinking of a much later period, not the thinking of a Medieval composer. I will say that during the late Renaissance things began to move more to a vertical thinking - but I was speaking of Medieval and early-middle Renaissance.I'm a musicologist who has studied this music and the theory treatises about it, and I've written motets in this style. What you're missing - well, a part of what you're missing - is that the way parts were written for performance has nothing to do with how they were composed. Your conclusions are wholly incorrect. Composers could compose at a keyboard or on erasable slates before copying parts. And in theory treatises they wrote examples in score format. In the Renaissance composers definitely were aware of the chords resulting from all the parts they were writing, as is clear from the writing of theorist/composers like Gioseffo Zarlino, a student of Adrian Willaert, who wrote:
"A composition may be called truly perfect when, in every change of chord, ascending or descending, there are heard all of those consonances whose components give a variety of sound. Where such consonances are heard, the harmony is truly perfect. Now these consonances that offer diversity to the ear are the fifth and third or their compounds. … Since harmony is a unity of diverse elements, we must strive with all our might, in order to achieve perfect harmony, to have those two consonances or their compounds sound in our compositions as much as possible. True, musicians often write the sixth in place of the fifth, and this is fine."
For those who don't know theory, what Zarlino has described here as perfect harmonies are what we call triads in root position and first inversion - that is, most of the same basic harmonic vocabulary as was used by early Baroque composers. He goes on to explain that one cannot always write perfect harmonies in three-part counterpoint, where sometimes an octave must be used in place of the third or fifth "to preserve a beautiful, elegant, and simple voice line … but to deprive compositions in four parts of one of these consonances is shameful …"*
*The Art of Counterpoint, Part Three of Le Istitutioni harmoniche, 1558, trans. Guy Marco and Claude Palisca (New York: Norton, 1968), 187-88. Emphases above are mine.
You may find that you have a different take on the opera if you see it -- Savall made a video recording. On the other hand this is one I remember enjoyingComposers born 1533-1567. What's our 'Work of the Week'?
Level 1
No works
Level 2
No works
Level 3
Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Orfeo
I was surprised. I thought another Monteverdi work would take the accolade. I was wrong.
My listening today. I've been looking forward to this all week:
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Monteverdi: l'Orfeo
Jordi Savall, Montserrat Figueras, Furio Zanasi, Arianna Savall, Sara Mingardo, Carlos Mena, Gerd Türk, Le Concert des Nations, La Capella Reial de Catalunya
Lovely thing before the caesura, and normally I don't enjoy Willaert's church music much.Willaert, Adrian: Benedicta es Coelorum Regina
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We weren't. The conversation you entered was about Renaissance music, not medieval. The treatise I cited is codifying music of the early 16thc, right in the middle of the Renaissance and it certainly applies to Josquin, a quintessential middle Renaissance composer. But even in the early Renaissance what Zarlino said holds pretty well. What do you think the new English sound was all about? Essentially, triadic consonance.Those texts were written a century at least after the music was composed. They reflect the thinking of a much later period, not the thinking of a Medieval composer. I will say that during the late Renaissance things began to move more to a vertical thinking - but I was speaking of Medieval and early-middle Renaissance.
Early polyphony was a performance practice, not even notated until later - and conventions about adding parts to monophonic chant involved the production of consonant intervals. To add a third voice the same principle applied, making that the lines compared to each other, not necessarily looking at all three together, did not produce dissonant intervals. There was no conception of "triads" or "chords" (i.e. with names) just intervals. This remained to be the case for 300 hundred years, roughly from the 12th through the 15th century.
One thing that bothers me is an attempt to read-into early music music concepts and especially "tonal" aspects which only developed later.
I wasn't aware that the conversation was limited to the Renaissance. In any event, Zarlino is writing long after the fact and if he is attributing to Josquin concepts which were not in common use until much later, the same problem exists. Zarlino is describing the music in terminology current with his time not the time of when it was composed. I am not even convinced that a composer such as Palestrina thought in terms of diatonic triads.We weren't. The conversation you entered was about Renaissance music, not medieval. The treatise I cited is codifying music of the early 16thc, right in the middle of the Renaissance and it certainly applies to Josquin. But even in the early Renaissance what Zarlino said holds pretty well. What do you think the new English sound was all about? Essentially, triadic consonance.
The second bold passage isn't correct or else you've misstated it. If indeed "the lines compared to each other … did not produce dissonant intervals," you would by definition be talking about triadic language because the octave, fifth, third, sixth, and their compounds, the components of Zarlino's perfect harmonies, comprise all of the available consonances. Medieval dissonance treatment tended to favor perfect consonances on strong beats but all kinds of dissonance was possible in between because while each line was made consonant with the tenor, the additional voices weren't necessarily made consonant with each other.
Long after what fact? BWV1080 cited Renaissance music. I responded about Renaissance music citing a theorist writing about music of the first half of the 16thc. Then you complained that what I said wasn't true of Medieval music.I wasn't aware that the conversation was limited to the Renaissance. In any event, Zarlino is writing long after the fact and if he is attributing to Josquin concepts which were not in common use until much later, the same problem exists. Zarlino is describing the music in terminology current with his time not the time of when it was composed. I am not even convinced that a composer such as Palestrina thought in terms of diatonic triads.
What do you mean "But again these composers had no knowledge of functional harmony." No one in this discussion mentioned or implied anything about functional harmony until you just tried to shoehorn it in, implying I was arguing for an anachronistic concept. Nice try.greed. I was speaking of note against note polyphony, which when it grew into contrary motion and more florid singing there were seconds and other non perfect intervals produced such as thirds and even sixths. But again, these composers had no knowledge of fuctiocnal harmony, nor even diatonic triads, and instead even late Renaissance composers thought of triads as anything more than vertical coincidences.
Oh Jeezus.If you are trying to claim that functional harmony existed in the Renaissance I think you would be incorrect.
I don't know who translated Zarlino, but I doubt that he actually wrote the words "chord" or "triad" since those terms originate from within a context of diatonic harmony. At the very least, the terms chord and triad imply vertical thinking, which I think is inappropriate for Josquin and all the Medieval/Renaissance composers, who thought linearly, not vertically. If that was what you wished to claim, that Renaissance composers thought vertically, then I disagree. They were aware of the vertical coincidences, but saw them as just that - coincidences. And their only concern was related to the intervalic behavior.Long after what fact? BWV1080 cited Renaissance music. I responded about Renaissance music citing a theorist writing about music of the first half of the 16thc. Then you complained that what I said wasn't true of Medieval music.A total non sequitur. When your error was pointed out you should have just bowed out and said you misunderstood what was under discussion.
Obviously, none of the people you mentioned used the term diatonic triad. (You are the only person who used that term.) But what we call the triad was the basis of the vertical sonorities all of them used and which were the inevitable result of their methods of dissonance treatment. The dissonance treatment Zarlino describes is perfectly applicable to the music of Josquin. All one has to do is use one ears to hear this.
What do you mean "But again these composers had no knowledge of functional harmony." No one in this discussion mentioned or implied anything about functional harmony until you just tried to shoehorn it in, implying I was arguing for an anachronistic concept. Nice try.
Oh Jeezus.Nowhere in anything I wrote is there anything remotely like a claim for functional harmony.
Where did you get this weird idea? It's perfectly obvious just by listening that Renaissance composers thought both linearly and vertically. And Zarlino, a Renaissance composer trained by a more famous Renaissance composer, proves it by describing the terms in which this vertical thought is framed! The Italian terms accordo and armonia are close cognates of the ones we use, so there is no confusion or translation issue. His statements refute all of your claims. More to the point, simultaneous sounding tones - intervals - are vertical. Thinking about their acceptable and desired configurations is vertical thinking!I don't know who translated Zarlino, but I doubt that he actually wrote the words "chord" or "triad" since those terms originate from within a context of diatonic harmony. At the very least, the terms chord and triad imply vertical thinking, which I think is inappropriate for Josquin and all the Medieval/Renaissance composers, who thought linearly, not vertically. If that was what you wished to claim, that Renaissance composers thought vertically, then I disagree. They were aware of the vertical coincidences, but saw them as just that - coincidences. And their only concern was related to the intervalic behavior.
You're right I did not follow the thread of the conversation with its apparent anchor in the Renaissance. And since you seem to be uninterested in exploring a more nuanced discussion than the previous series of posts prior to my entry, I will bow out.
I've been excited to get to Monteverdi and opera! I've not had the chance to catch any operas prior to Mozart and this will be the first time I've dug into any Baroque opera recordings. Four tracks into this disc, and I'm really loving it! Such a different energy from all other operas I've seen.Composers born 1533-1567. What's our 'Work of the Week'?
Level 1
No works
Level 2
No works
Level 3
Monteverdi, Claudio: l'Orfeo
I was surprised. I thought another Monteverdi work would take the accolade. I was wrong.
My listening today. I've been looking forward to this all week:
![]()
Monteverdi: l'Orfeo
Jordi Savall, Montserrat Figueras, Furio Zanasi, Arianna Savall, Sara Mingardo, Carlos Mena, Gerd Türk, Le Concert des Nations, La Capella Reial de Catalunya