Classical Music Forum banner
841 - 860 of 888 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
568 Posts
Too bloody long.
for once i disagree with you guys, the third is my favourite mahler symphony together with the ninth; just the first movement is worth the entry ticket, as it is one of the greatest movements in all music; the final movement is nearly as good as the ninth's last movement; of course if you listen to the sugar and honey from bernstein it will clock at 1:45; so do yourself a huge favour and get the honeck version with the pittsburgh so; it clocks at 1:33; that alone will ease your woes but when you hear the superlative exton sound you will change your mind
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,256 Posts
for once i disagree with you guys, the third is my favourite mahler symphony together with the ninth; just the first movement is worth the entry ticket, as it is one of the greatest movements in all music; the final movement is nearly as good as the ninth's last movement; of course if you listen to the sugar and honey from bernstein it will clock at 1:45; so do yourself a huge favour and get the honeck version with the pittsburgh so; it clocks at 1:33; that alone will ease your woes but when you hear the superlative exton sound you will change your mind
It’s probably my favourite Mahler symphony too, along maybe with 7 and 10 and if I’m feeling self indulgently morose, 9. It’s just that, you know, there needs to be a comfort break in the concert.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
568 Posts
It’s probably my favourite Mahler symphony too, along maybe with 7 and 10 and if I’m feeling self indulgently morose, 9. It’s just that, you know, there needs to be a comfort break in the concert.
well, i am not like you; i can easily listen to rheingold before lunch; tristan after lunch; mahler's third before dinner; and mahler's ninth after dinner; that's my idea of a perfect day; between these i would read some stories by borges; as a matter of fact that is exactly what i did a week ago
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
742 Posts
i can easily listen to rheingold before lunch; tristan after lunch; mahler's third before dinner; and mahler's ninth after dinner; that's my idea of a perfect day; between these i would read some stories by borges; as a matter of fact that is exactly what i did a week ago
I can see how that might be enjoyable, provided one doesn't get indigestion. Interestingly, Borges himself was tone deaf. He never listened to Wagner and when questioned said he had never even heard of Mahler.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,779 Posts
I don't think knowing Mahler's music would have been standard in early/mid-20th century Argentina, unless a person was really into music.
While claims of "rediscovery" of Mahler in the 1960s was wildly exaggerated wrt some European centres (like Amsterdam and even Vienna who didn't need Lennie to learn their Mahler) it's still true that it was somewhat niche, even a bit later.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,901 Posts
Discussion Starter · #847 ·
A bit of a lieder-fest this evening. Most pleasant so far.


Hamler: Kindertotenleider
Anne Sofie von Otter, Pierre Boulez, Vienna Philharmonic


Wolf: Moricke Leider
Ian Bostridge. Antonio Pappano


Mahler: Lieder Eines Fahrenden Gesellen
Karen Cargill, Simon Lepper


Mahler: Ruckert Leider
Jamie Barton, Brian Zeger


Mahler: Des Knaben Wunderhorn
Christiane Karg, Malcolm Martineau
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
I've got very little to add to all this except to say that I really enjoyed the week of Elgar. And this week of Debussy and especially Mahler has been wonderful and surprising. The extra time is very welcome because of the sheer length of much of the Mahler. But I've truly enjoyed almost all of what I've heard --- only excerpts from Pelleas & Melisande left from Level 2, and hopefully most if not all of Level 3 before the next week begins.

That recording of Das Lied von der Erde by Rundfunk-SO w/ Connolly & Smith was excellent, I thought. There's just something to Mahler's choral and vocal works that I just love, and those are usually the types of works I've struggled with most on this journey. I find it extra interesting that these lieder are all tied to ancient or classical Chinese poems. If my econ history undergrad can peek out a little here, that late 19th century era was the first big surge of economic and cultural globalization and, of course, German and European colonization gave them increased access to China by the mid-to-late 19th C. Fascinating to see a tangible example of how those major global reorderings left their imprint on Mahler's art.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,901 Posts
Discussion Starter · #849 · (Edited)
Coming at you slightly early again. We've had nine enjoyable days with Debussy and Mahler, and I again have commitments tomorrow and over the weekend. I very much enjoyed Mahler, save for Das Lied von Der Erde. I don't know why it's so impenetrable for me. I'll persevere. Debussy's work is pleasant, although La Mer passes me by all too easily. Hugo Wolf was a pleasant surprise. Some delightful lieder. Anyway, the new list is here if you want it, and it'll be here on Saturday if you're still busy with Debussy and Mahler.

Composers born 1864-1865; Sibelius, Richard Strauss, Carl Nielsen, Dukas and Glazunov. Looking forward to it.

Level 1
No works

Level 2
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 2
Strauss, Richard: Vier Letzte Lieder
Strauss, Richard: Also Sprach Zarathustra
Sibelius, Jean: Violin Concerto in D minor esp. ii. Adagio di molto
Sibelius, Jean: Finlandia
Strauss, Richard: Der Rosenkavalier

Level 3
Strauss, Richard: Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 5
Strauss, Richard: Salome
Strauss, Richard: Ein Heldenleben
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 7
Strauss, Richard: Don Juan

Level 4
Strauss, Richard: Metamorphosen
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 5
Strauss, Richard: Death and Transfiguration
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 4 "The Inextinguishable"
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 4
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 3 "Sinfonia Espansiva"
Strauss, Richard: Don Quixote
Strauss, Richard: Elektra
Sibelius, Jean: Lemminkäinen Suite esp. The Swan of Tuonela
Dukas, Paul: The Sorcerer's Apprentice
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 1
Strauss, Richard: Eine Alpensinfonie
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 6
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 3
Glazunov, Alexander: Violin Concerto in A minor esp. ii Andante
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 6 "Sinfonia Semplice"
Sibelius, Jean: Karelia Suite esp. Intermezzo, iii. Alla Marcia

Level 5
Sibelius, Jean: Tapiola
Glazunov, Alexander: The Seasons
Sibelius, Jean: Valse Triste from Kuolema - Incidental music
Sibelius, Jean: Kullervo
Nielsen, Carl: Clarinet Concerto
Sibelius, Jean: En Saga
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 2 "The Four Temperaments"

Level 6
Nielsen, Carl: Wind Quintet
Sibelius, Jean: Pohjola's Daughter
Glazunov, Alexander: Symphony No. 4
Strauss, Richard: Oboe Concerto
Strauss, Richard: Horn Concerto No. 2
Strauss, Richard: Ariadne auf Naxos
Glazunov, Alexander: Symphony No. 5
Sibelius: Night Ride & Sunrise
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 1
Strauss, Richard: Symphonia Domestica
Sibelius, Jean: The Wood Nymph
Sibelius, Jean: Songs (No Ops. mentioned)
Strauss, Richard: Horn Concerto No. 1
Nielsen, Carl: Violin Concerto
Dukas, Paul: Piano Sonata
Sibelius, Jean: The Tempest
Glazunov, Alexander: Saxophone Concerto
Nielsen, Carl: Flute Concerto
Dukas, Paul: Ariane et Barbe-bleue
Dukas, Paul: Le Péri
Glazunov, Alexander: Raymonda
Strauss, Richard: Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Strauss, Richard: Five Songs Op. 39 esp. iv. Befreit

Level 7
Nielsen, Carl: Helios Overture
Strauss, Richard: Songs (4) Op. 27 esp. Morgen!
Strauss, Richard: Songs (5), op. 41 esp. Wiegenlied
Strauss, Richard: Burleske
Strauss, Richard: Capriccio
d'Albert, Eugen: Tiefland
Nielsen, Carl: Chaconne
Strauss, Richard: Aus Italien

Honourable mentions:
Capua, Eduardo di: O Sole Mio
Halvorsen, Johan: Suite Ancienne, Op. 31a

I have Osmo Vänskä/Minnesota Orchestra lined up for Sibelius' symphonies, Sakari Oramo/Royal Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra for Nielsen, José Serebrier/Royal Scottish National Orchestra for Glazunov, and a range of performers for Strauss.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,779 Posts
One should note that the text of LvdE are free translations of free translations. I think Bethge worked with French translations of the Chinese poem and overall they are so far from the originals that it apparently was difficult to identify some of them. Also, in Der Abschied Mahler? combined three? poems. That doesn't mean that the poetry there is bad but it is actually quite far from being "authentic" chinese.

Interestingly, Zemlinsky's Lyric Symphony 10 or 15 years later uses translations of poems by then comtemporary Indian poet Tagore, so also a bit "exotic" but probably these texts are much closer to Tagore than LvdE to the old Chinese poets.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,256 Posts
Coming at you slightly early again. We've had nine enjoyable days with Debussy and Mahler, and I again have commitments tomorrow and over the weekend. I very much enjoyed Mahler, save for Das Lied von Der Erde. I don't know why it's so impenetrable for me. I'll persevere. Debussy's work is pleasant, although La Mer passes me by all too easily. Hugo Wolf was a pleasant surprise. Some delightful lieder. Anyway, the new list is here if you want it, and it'll be here on Saturday if you're still busy with Debussy and Mahler.

Composers born 1864-1865; Sibelius, Richard Strauss, Carl Nielsen, Dukas and Glazunov. Looking forward to it.

Level 1
No works

Level 2
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 2
Strauss, Richard: Vier Letzte Lieder
Strauss, Richard: Also Sprach Zarathustra
Sibelius, Jean: Violin Concerto in D minor esp. ii. Adagio di molto
Sibelius, Jean: Finlandia
Strauss, Richard: Der Rosenkavalier

Level 3
Strauss, Richard: Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 5
Strauss, Richard: Salome
Strauss, Richard: Ein Heldenleben
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 7
Strauss, Richard: Don Juan

Level 4
Strauss, Richard: Metamorphosen
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 5
Strauss, Richard: Death and Transfiguration
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 4 "The Inextinguishable"
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 4
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 3 "Sinfonia Espansiva"
Strauss, Richard: Don Quixote
Strauss, Richard: Elektra
Sibelius, Jean: Lemminkäinen Suite esp. The Swan of Tuonela
Dukas, Paul: The Sorcerer's Apprentice
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 1
Strauss, Richard: Eine Alpensinfonie
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 6
Sibelius, Jean: Symphony No. 3
Glazunov, Alexander: Violin Concerto in A minor esp. ii Andante
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 6 "Sinfonia Semplice"
Sibelius, Jean: Karelia Suite esp. Intermezzo, iii. Alla Marcia

Level 5
Sibelius, Jean: Tapiola
Glazunov, Alexander: The Seasons
Sibelius, Jean: Valse Triste from Kuolema - Incidental music
Sibelius, Jean: Kullervo
Nielsen, Carl: Clarinet Concerto
Sibelius, Jean: En Saga
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 2 "The Four Temperaments"

Level 6
Nielsen, Carl: Wind Quintet
Sibelius, Jean: Pohjola's Daughter
Glazunov, Alexander: Symphony No. 4
Strauss, Richard: Oboe Concerto
Strauss, Richard: Horn Concerto No. 2
Strauss, Richard: Ariadne auf Naxos
Glazunov, Alexander: Symphony No. 5
Sibelius: Night Ride & Sunrise
Nielsen, Carl: Symphony No. 1
Strauss, Richard: Symphonia Domestica
Sibelius, Jean: The Wood Nymph
Sibelius, Jean: Songs (No Ops. mentioned)
Strauss, Richard: Horn Concerto No. 1
Nielsen, Carl: Violin Concerto
Dukas, Paul: Piano Sonata
Sibelius, Jean: The Tempest
Glazunov, Alexander: Saxophone Concerto
Nielsen, Carl: Flute Concerto
Dukas, Paul: Le Péri
Glazunov, Alexander: Raymonda
Strauss, Richard: Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Strauss, Richard: Five Songs Op. 39 esp. iv. Befreit

Level 7
Nielsen, Carl: Helios Overture
Strauss, Richard: Songs (4) Op. 27 esp. Morgen!
Strauss, Richard: Songs (5), op. 41 esp. Wiegenlied
Strauss, Richard: Burleske
Strauss, Richard: Capriccio
d'Albert, Eugen: Tiefland
Nielsen, Carl: Chaconne
Strauss, Richard: Aus Italien

Honourable mentions:
Capua, Eduardo di: O Sole Mio
Halvorsen, Johan: Suite Ancienne, Op. 31a

I have Osmo Vänskä/Minnesota Orchestra lined up for Sibelius' symphonies, Sakari Oramo/Royal Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra for Nielsen, José Serebrier/Royal Scottish National Orchestra for Glazunov, and a range of performers for Strauss.
Sibelius 4 would for me be the high point of the instrumental music in this lot -- Rosenkavelier probably the opera I'd choose -- it seems to me one of those almost perfect things, just the right balance of entertainment and "deep ideas." Here's Bernstein in the overture -- he's great because he's so vulgar, if you listen hard you can hear the orgasm at 55 secs.


BERNSTEIN AT THE ÓPERA XII: DER ROSENKAVALIER (Part 1/3) STRAUSS - YouTube
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
Very grateful for that extra time allotted for the lengthy works of Mahler. But boy did I REALLY enjoy this week. The levels 1-3 works of Mahler very quickly zoomed up the list of faves. I could listen to this stuff endlessly! (Indeed, it feels endless! But since we've had the time, it's mostly not been a problem).

Trying to wrap up the 6th right now. Got about 40 mins left of it! 🤣 And I've really enjoyed pretty much all of it so far. Hoping to get to the 4th, too! But I also want to check out Albeniz b/c I have a strong affinity for Spain but their music sort of seems off to the side from "Classical" music. I wonder why that is, given that their empire was so central and powerful for so long. 🤔

I did also like the works of Debussy very much. But it didn't quite match the grandeur and splendor of the Mahler works. But Clair de Lune will always be one of my all-time fave ear worms. Maybe mostly because I've loved the Kamasi Washington rendition of it ever since he released his "The Epic" album in 2015.


 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,779 Posts
If you want to save time with R. Strauss, I'd recommend "Salome" because it is short and rather atmospheric, "Don Juan" is my fav of the tone poems.
(You can also save time by skipping a lot of Sibelius ;) and especially the Glasunov saxophone concerto..)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
If you want to save time with R. Strauss, I'd recommend "Salome" because it is short and rather atmospheric, "Don Juan" is my fav of the tone poems.
(You can also save time by skipping a lot of Sibelius ;) and especially the Glasunov saxophone concerto..)
funny. I'm listening to Salome now. Doesn't quite catch my ear as other operas do, though I love Birgitt Nilsson and there are moments on this recording that I find lovely. And ditto Don Juan and Merry Pranks -- not quite my type.

But I really liked Vier Letze Lieder, Zarathustra, Rosenkavalier, and Heldenleben. And I've really enjoyed Sibelius' Finlandia and his Violin Concerto. Eager to get onto those symphonies 5 & 7!

On the whole, I'm impressed by R. Strauss and curious to dig deeper into Sibelius.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,256 Posts
I've always had a soft spot for the Jews' chorus in Salome, I think it's funny, with the Jews nit picking in a Talmudic way.


And I like the duet between Jochanaan and Salome too, especially when he says "Niemals, Tochter Babylons" Strauss understood women! He knew they don't like to take no for an answer.


What those two youtube clips don't show is that in the opera house it can transcend kitsch. It all depends on having a really good actor playing Jochanaan in my experience.

Strangely Jon Vickers sang Herod. I wonder why.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,134 Posts

"The music paints a gossamer, transcendental image of a mystical swan floating through Tuonela, the realm of the dead. Lemminkäinen, the hero of the epic, has been tasked with killing the sacred swan; but on the way, he is shot with a poisoned arrow and dies. In the next part of the story he is restored to life."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,779 Posts
But why would I want to do that?

Loving Sibelius!
There was a huge amount of Sibelius in that list above and I do think he is a uneven composer with a lot of chaff, like all that incidental music, several of the tone poems etc. (I also think some of his major works are slightly or wildly overrated, some time ago someone made a rather mean comment about the violin concerto but I could not totally disagree that it's downhill after the first 3 min.)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,901 Posts
Discussion Starter · #859 ·
There was a huge amount of Sibelius in that list above and I do think he is a uneven composer with a lot of chaff, like all that incidental music, several of the tone poems etc. (I also think some of his major works are slightly or wildly overrated, some time ago someone made a rather mean comment about the violin concerto but I could not totally disagree that it's downhill after the first 3 min.)
I'll admit that perhaps my familiarity with the violin concerto, and works like Finlandia and Karelia Suite make me more inclined to enjoy them and therefore rate them more highly. I also had to work quite hard last year to appreciate Sibelius' symphonies, but I got there and overall, on a pure enjoyment level, I'm rating his works more highly than any other composer that I'm listening to a similar volume of works (Mendelssohn, Schumann, Elgar, Vivaldi, Debussy, Chopin).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,256 Posts
I'll admit that perhaps my familiarity with the violin concerto, and works like Finlandia and Karelia Suite make me more inclined to enjoy them and therefore rate them more highly. I also had to work quite hard last year to appreciate Sibelius' symphonies, but I got there and overall, on a pure enjoyment level, I'm rating his works more highly than any other composer that I'm listening to a similar volume of works (Mendelssohn, Schumann, Elgar, Vivaldi, Debussy, Chopin).

What I found was that Sibelius is seasonal -- 4 and 7 for cold seasons, 2,5 and 6 for warm times.
 
841 - 860 of 888 Posts
Top