[Chilham]

Skipping straight to Dunstable past the Ars Subtilior?...

Ars Subtilior produced very few recommendations, but the ones there are you'll find below in Level 7.

Level 1
No works

Level 2
No works

Level 3
Guillaume de Machaut: Messe de Notre Dame

Level 4
Dufay, Guillaume: Missa l'Homme Armé
Guillaume de Machaut: Douce Dame Jolie

Level 5
Dunstaple, John: Quam Pulchra Es
Dufay, Guillaume: Missa Se La Face Ay Pale
Dufay, Guillaume: Nuper rosarum flores
Landini, Francesco: Ballades inc. Ecco la primavera, Non Ara Ma' Pieta, Sì dolce non sonò chol lir' Orfeo
Dufay, Guillaume: Secular Songs inc. Adieu ces bons vins de Lannoys, Se La Face Ay Pale, Craindre Vous Vueil, Hélas Mon Deuil, a ce Coup- Sui Je Mort, Ce Jour de l'An, Je Languis en Piteux Martire
Guillaume de Machaut: Ma fin est mon commencement

Level 6
Guillaume de Machaut: Le Remède de Fortune
Dunstaple, John: Veni Sancte Spritus
Dufay, Guillaume: Ave Regina Coelorum
Power, Leonel: Missa Alma Redemptoris Mater
Philippe de Vitry: Motets inc. Impudenter circumivi / Virtutibus
Seuse, Heinrich: In Dulce Jubilo
Guillaume de Machaut: Le Livre du Voir Dit
Dufay, Guillaume: Missa Ave Regina Coelorum
Philippe de Vitry: Roman de Fauvel Motets
Guillaume de Machaut: Felix Virgo / Inviolata / Ad Te Suspiramus
Oswald von Wolkenstein: Es Fuegt Sich
Dunstaple, John: Gloria in Canon
Dufay, Guillaume: Supremum est Mortalibus Bonum
Busnoys, Antoine: In Hydraulis
Busnoys, Antoine: Missa l'Homme Armé

Level 7
Dufay, Guillaume: Missa Ecce Ancilla Domini
Dufay, Guillaume: Ave Maria Stella
Binchois, Gilles: Tristre Plaisir et Douloureuse Joye
Dunstaple, John: Preco Preheminencle
Dunstaple, John: Salve Scema/Salve Salus
Dufay, Guillaume: Ecclesie Militantis Roma Sedes
Philippe de Vitry: Tribum/Quoniam/Merito
Philippe de Vitry: Tuba Sacre/In Arboris/Virgo Sum
Guillaume de Machaut: DAVID Melisma
Guillaume de Machaut: De Toutes Flours
Guillaume de Machaut: En Mon Cuer
Guillaume de Machaut: Lai de Confort
Guillaume de Machaut: Lai de la Fonteinne
Guillaume de Machaut: Lasse / Se j'Aime / Pourquoy
Guillaume de Machaut: Les Nouveaus des Amoureus
Guillaume de Machaut: Pourquoy Me Bat Mes Maris
Guillaume de Machaut: Rose, liz Prentemps
Guillaume de Machaut: Très bonne et Belle
Guillaume de Machaut: Bone pastor Guillerme / Bone pastor, qui pastores / Bone pastor
Guillaume de Machaut: Nes Qu'on Porroit
Guillaume de Machaut: Se Je Souspir, Virelai
Guillaume de Machaut: Tous Corps / De Souspirant / Suspiro
Guillaume de Machaut: Trop de Peinne
Maestro Piero: Cavalcan Con un Giovine Accorto
Gherardello da Firenze: Donna l'Altrui Mirar
Gherardello da Firenze: Tosto Che l'Alba
Giovanni de Cascia: Appress' un Fiume Chiaro
Jacopo da Bologna: Oselleto Salvagio
Jacopo da Bologna: Non Ai Suo Amante
Anon. : Nu is du Betfart so Here "Geisslerlied" or "Flagellant's Song"
Paulo da Firenze: Benedicamus Domino
Paulo da Firenze: Madrigals
Ciconia, Johannes: Doctorum Principem - Melodia Suavissima - Vir Mitis
Philippus de Caserta: En remirant vo douce pourtraiture
Tapssier, Johannes: Eya Dulcis/Vale Placens
Solage: Fumeux Fume
Carmen, Johannes: Pontifici Decora Speculi
Dunstable, John: O Rosa Bella
Dunstable, John: Missa Rex Seculorum
Dufay, Guillaume: Alma Redemptoris Mater
Dufay, Guillaume: Missa Sancti Jacobi
Dufay, Guillaume: Vos Qui Secuti Estis Me
Binchois, Gilles: Alma Redemptoris Mater
Binchois, Gilles: Deal Angoisseux
Binchois, Gilles: Veni Creator Spritus
Binchois, Gilles: Filles à Marier
Busnoys, Antoine: J'Ay Pros Amours Tout au Rebours
Busnoys, Antoine: Quant J'Ay au Ceur
Busnoys, Antoine: Tu Solus Altissimus

 

[Mandryka]

Carmen, Johannes: Pontifici Decora Speculi

Is there a way to hear this, or indeed to hear anything by Carmen?

Busnoys, Antoine: J'Ay Pros Amours Tout au Rebours
Busnoys, Antoine: Quant J'Ay au Ceur
Busnoys, Antoine: Tu Solus Altissimus

These too are unknown to me as far as I remember. Always a joy to revisit Busnois.

 

[Neo Romanza]

I don't understand the need for anyone to have some regiment in order to enjoy music. Pretty ludicrous actually. So, no, I definitely won't be joining you or anyone else in any kind of planned listening schedule. I prefer to listen at my own leisure, not someone else's.

 

[Mandryka]

I don't understand the need for anyone to have some regiment in order to enjoy music. Pretty ludicrous actually. So, no, I definitely won't be joining you or anyone else in any kind of planned listening schedule. I prefer to listen at my own leisure, not someone else's.

Lots of people need orientation, they want to classify and rate things so that they can reassure themselves that they're on the "right" track. It's something I've felt myself sometimes in very recent music, because, basically, there are a lot of composers, a lot of music, and no trustable authoritative signposts. I've learned not to be bothered by it, to relish the absence of a canon, a list, but it was/is a hurdle to overcome.

For most people, classical music is easy -- you just listen to the stuff the radio broadcasts and the streaming companies promote and the teachers in school tell you that you need to know about to get through the test. Music is a consumer product and you allow yourself to be swayed by capitalist forces.

 

[cheregi]

I don't have any issue with Schmelzer or Peres performing these ancient works with stylistic interpretations coming from anywhere. But Peres, especially, tries to make a scholarly case that he is correct. This is my problem, what I see as propaganda parading as musicology.

Taruskin made the point decades ago that the HIP movement is really a manifestation of post-modernism, i.e. using whatever argumentation we wish to create a whiff of authenticity but really it is an expression of personal taste draped in the clothes of period performance.

That said, I vastly prefer HIP/PI performances/recordings over modern ones which incorporate no aspect of historical accuracy.

There have been some horrid performances of Early Music, Machaut e.g., in which over large choirs, brass instruments, and other inappropriate things are used, or people like Lucien Kandel and his group Ensemble Musica Nova abusing musica ficta to transform Machaut into a composer writing diatonic music.

Schmelzer and Peres are a breath of fresh air even if they err on the opposite end of the spectrum, i.e. trying to conjure an even more exotic sound from music for which we don't have enough information to know exactly how it really sounded.

Interesting. I haven't read enough Peres liner notes (or wherever else he is publishing) to get a sense of his overall claims around that but I certainly trust your analysis. And of course it is just another trap to assume western music evolves while 'eastern' music stays static and that the past can be accessed better by using 'eastern' sounds...

I'm actually quite partial to those 'horrid' performances. One of my favorite early music ensembles is Quintetto Vocale Italiano, who recorded Gesualdo's madrigals in the 1960s(?) with extreme and incessant vibrato and with that kind of soft, almost 'crooned' tone production, it's extraordinary.

 

[Chilham]

... Join me for the full journey or link in when it suits your listening. I hope there'll be plenty of discussion, and only ask that whatever you share remains positive and helpful to those with perhaps less experience and knowledge than you.

I don't understand the need for anyone to have some regiment in order to enjoy music. Pretty ludicrous actually. So, no, I definitely won't be joining you or anyone else in any kind of planned listening schedule. I prefer to listen at my own leisure, not someone else's.

Good. Then. ............

 

[Chilham]

Is there a way to hear this, or indeed to hear anything by Carmen?....

Not sure if this might be listed in error. There's also a reference to Lorenzo de Ponte in the recommendation. Needs more research.

... These too are unknown to me as far as I remember. Always a joy to revisit Busnois.

Same guy, different spelling.

 

[Mandryka]

Same guy, different spelling.

Sure, my point was that those songs aren't familiar to me.

 

[Chilham]

Sure, my point was that those songs aren't familiar to me.

Here's one I think:

 

[Chilham]

Josquin, Ockeghem and their contemporaries starts tomorrow.

 

[Mandryka]

Josquin, Ockeghem and their contemporaries starts tomorrow.

That's by Jean Japart.

 

[Chilham]

That's by Jean Japart.

I know it's on an album sub-titled, "secular music of Jean Japaret", but in addition to Japart the playlist contains music by Josquin, Obrecht, Martini, de Vines, Ghizeghem, and this one by Busnois.

 

[eljr]

Well, I might join those months for Early music (January) and Contemporary music (December).

They are the best, aren't they... followed by teh Baroque.

 

[new but obsessed]

I don't understand the need for anyone to have some regiment in order to enjoy music. Pretty ludicrous actually. So, no, I definitely won't be joining you or anyone else in any kind of planned listening schedule. I prefer to listen at my own leisure, not someone else's.

Sometimes I like to walk around an art museum. Sometimes I enjoy a docent tour with a group to share the experience with and learn from others.

Sometimes I want to read books on my own time. Sometimes I want to do it along with a book club and chat about what we've been reading.

Hardly ludicrous. Actually, quite a popular mode of engaging with art.

EDIT: and it's not like any of us are paying for this or assigned homework or are taking tests. At least for me, this does count as listening at my own leisure. I mean.... isn't that the whole point of TC? Surely any of us could be enjoying all this great music out there without ever needing to chat about it with strangers online.

 

[science]

I don't understand the need for anyone to have some regiment [sic] in order to enjoy music. Pretty ludicrous actually. So, no, I definitely won't be joining you or anyone else in any kind of planned listening schedule. I prefer to listen at my own leisure, not someone else's.

I guess we all do what we want to do, including tell other people that what they want to do is ludicrous.

 

[Neo Romanza]

Sometimes I like to walk around an art museum. Sometimes I enjoy a docent tour with a group to share the experience with and learn from others.

Sometimes I want to read books on my own time. Sometimes I want to do it along with a book club and chat about what we've been reading.

Hardly ludicrous. Actually, quite a popular mode of engaging with art.

EDIT: and it's not like any of us are paying for this or assigned homework or are taking tests. At least for me, this does count as listening at my own leisure. I mean.... isn't that the whole point of TC? Surely any of us could be enjoying all this great music out there without ever needing to chat about it with strangers online.

I guess we all do what we want to do, including tell other people that what they want to do is ludicrous.

The whole point of Talk Classical is to share opinions and I gave mine about this particular idea from the OP. It's always a curious thing that when someone comes in with a different viewpoint that doesn't match the head-nodders, they're somehow seen as "an enemy of the state".

 

[science]

The whole point of Talk Classical is to share opinions and I gave mine about this particular idea from the OP. It's always a curious thing that when someone comes in with a different viewpoint that doesn't match the head-nodders, they're somehow seen as "an enemy of the state".

You're obviously far more gloriously nonconformist than I am and your contribution to this thread might wake up the sheeple like me.

 

[Chilham]

So, rather than let the thread sit doing nothing other than attracting detractors for a couple of days, let's press on. Composers born 1400-1499 excluding those already covered under the Burgundian School.

Level 1
No works

Level 2
No works

Level 3
Josquin des Prez - Missa Pange Lingua

My listening today:

Josquin: Missa Pange Lingua

Peter Phillips & The Tallis Scholars

 

[SanAntone]

There is a thread called For Love of Early Music which is a general thread for discussing this long period of music. There are similar threads for each period of music history.

I gather this thread has a specific purpose something like a monthly survey of the entire history of music by considering some works as representing each period as decided by one person.

Okay.

 

[science]

Josquin des Prez - Missa Pange Lingua

One of the great ones.

IDK if you're planning to listen to Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae but it's one of my favorites by him as well.