Thanks for sharing this.

As a fan of GG and a med student (psychiatry being one of the studied fields), I spent a considerable amount of time trying to figure out what he could have had. In addition to my own analysis, I read several opinions of expert who provided their take on the matter.

Most opinions point to Asperger's Syndrome as the main cause of GG's symptoms (social phobia, isolation, eccentricities, phenomenal memory, etc.). Broadly, Asperger's Syndrome (which doesn't exist anymore as all spectres of Autism have been merged into Autism) was diagnosed in kids with Autism and a functional level of social skills (unlike the others, they are capable of interacting and leading a somewhat normal social life).

Without necessarily discrediting the majority's opinion, because it is quite plausible, I'll only say that the diagnosis isn't that clear. Many medical and psychiatric conditions are capable of explaining GG's symptoms. He could have had a schizoid personality disorder which could lead to schizophrenia at an older age (I remember Cornelia Foss stating in a documentary that she and her kids had to leave him at some point because the ''episodes'' he was sometimes having at night (delusions, being convinced that someone was trying to poison him, being convinced of medical issues he did not have, etc.) became too intense. Another possibility is that he could have had an obsessive compulsif disorder, his obsession being catching germs and his compulsion being avoiding people and wearing gloves in order to prevent that. To those possibilities you can ad many others which I'm afraid will bore you if I start discussing in details. For instance, he was known to take a lot of medication for the physical and psychological symptoms he had. The amount of pills combined with the psychiatric condition(s) he had could've easily explained the ''episodes'' Cornelia Foss was referring to (them being acute moments of delirium rather than actual psychosis).

So in my opinion, we'll never find out what he really had because like anything with psychiatric disorders you have to consult several times and share every single detail of your private life in order for your healthcare specialist to be able to determine the right diagnosis.

All we'll ever have are speculations.

 

Broadly, Asperger's Syndrome (which doesn't exist anymore as all spectres of Autism have been merged into Autism) was diagnosed in kids with Autism and a functional level of social skills (unlike the others, they are capable of interacting and leading a somewhat normal social life).

Just because it is within the autism spectrum it is not the same as it does not exist.

 

I am so old I remember people having trouble adjusting to the DSM III.

 

Professionally, I have some knowledge on the subject. Gouldanian is correct that Asperger's as a diagnosis was eliminated from the 2013 DSM-5 wherein that 'syndrome' is now a part of the broader Autism category and would now correspond (generally speaking) to higher functioning on an Autism severity scale. There was more than one reason for the change, but one was that it simplified the process of classifying the diagnosis ie. if Asperger's really was high-functioning autism, then why was it being given a distinct diagnosis separate from autism.

However, while that worked for physicians making and classifying the diagnosis, it caused other problems in the non-medical community. Particularly, Asperger's had become fairly well known as a diagnosis that meant that the person had some behavior that was at times unusual, but the person could often function reasonably well in society. Thus, it did not carry with it the implications of the more serious 'full' autism diagnosis. This made it easier for the patient and associated families. IMO, that is why the term, Asperger's will continue to be used by the public and even by some physicians for some time to come.

I agree with Gouldanian that it will be almost impossible to ever be sure of a correct diagnosis for Glenn Gould other than the fact that he had, at the very least, a fairly severe Obsessive-Compulsive disorder. In some respects, his brilliance on the one hand and the nature of his overall 'disorders' on the other, reminds me of (the very late) Howard Hughes.

As a fairly young kid, I actually saw one of Glenn Gould's last performances (in Canada). He walked in with the proverbial warm clothing, scarf and gloves and sat very low at the piano. That's all I really remember. One thing that should be mentioned is that GG even after he stopped performing gave, sometimes televised, very eloquent music-related 'tutorials' or took part in discussions. On hearing these, if you didn't know otherwise, you would have thought that he was a normal and extremely intelligent person. Well, he was brilliant and likely, in some respects, a genius...

 

Professionally, I have some knowledge on the subject. Gouldanian is correct that Asperger's as a diagnosis was eliminated from the 2013 DSM-5 wherein that 'syndrome' is now a part of the broader Autism category and would now correspond (generally speaking) to higher functioning on an Autism severity scale. There was more than one reason for the change, but one was that it simplified the process of classifying the diagnosis ie. if Asperger's really was high-functioning autism, then why was it being given a distinct diagnosis separate from autism.

However, while that worked for physicians making and classifying the diagnosis, it caused other problems in the non-medical community. Particularly, Asperger's had become fairly well known as a diagnosis that meant that the person had some behavior that was at times unusual, but the person could often function reasonably well in society. Thus, it did not carry with it the implications of the more serious 'full' autism diagnosis. This made it easier for the patient and associated families. IMO, that is why the term, Asperger's will continue to be used by the public and even by some physicians for some time to come.

I agree with Gouldanian that it will be almost impossible to ever be sure of a correct diagnosis for Glenn Gould other than the fact that he had, at the very least, a fairly severe Obsessive-Compulsive disorder. In some respects, his brilliance on the one hand and the nature of his overall 'disorders' on the other, reminds me of (the very late) Howard Hughes.

As a fairly young kid, I actually saw one of Glenn Gould's last performances (in Canada). He walked in with the proverbial warm clothing, scarf and gloves and sat very low at the piano. That's all I really remember. One thing that should be mentioned is that GG even after he stopped performing gave, sometimes televised, very eloquent music-related 'tutorials' or took part in discussions. On hearing these, if you didn't know otherwise, you would have thought that he was a normal and extremely intelligent person. Well, he was brilliant and likely, in some respects, a genius...

The problem with these lectures Gould undertook was that he was not that good a communicator in the way (say) Bernstein was. He was, of course, extremely knowledgable himself, but couldn't get down to the level of his audience and would tend to lose all but the most knowledgeable. These poor folks had the agony of having to sit through his lecture (of which they understood little) when they were aching to hear him what he could do well - play. He was giving a lecture and played a small excerpt for the audience on the piano and they all applauded and shouted, "More!" They didn't want the lecture but they did want his pianism. One part of his problem, I guess, is that he had little awareness of others. Like he couldn't understand that normal people do not want to be rung up in the middle of the night to have a whole opera sung to them!

 

So, Gould's douche bag personality was a symptom of Autism?

 

Aspergers syndrom have been considered within the autism spectrum all the time high functioning autism and Aspergers syndrom is more or less the same.
For Glenn Gould it is impossible to say since he never was diagnosed in his lifetime.
DSM is by the way not a universal law book for diagnoses.

Glenn Gould was by the way related to Edward Grieg.

 

I always enjoyed Gould's sense of humor. He loved to skewer the pretentions of the "classical music" community and did so with deadly accuracy -- and I'm not just talking about Karlheinz Klopweisser!

 

KenOC you might enjoy this one too... (the humour and the Godfather theme at the end):

 

Is there any relationship between autism and psychopathy?

 

No but I have met one person with Aspergers who also had antisocial personality disorder.

 

I have wondered if GG's performances of Mozart sonatas were intended to 'skewer' idol-worshiping "Mozartians" rather than the composer. There are a few recordings by Mustonen of those sonatas that raise similar suspicions.

 

GG believed that if you couldn't play a piece differently why play it at all? To give the public yet another similar take on a classic piece that has been played the same for centuries? If so, don't. Let the people purchase the other recordings that sound exactly the same as your performance would sound like.

He believed in one's own interpretation of any piece, therefore a wide variety of interpretations which would allow a broader range of people to connect with the piece (e.g. you hate his take on Mozart, I like it, if it weren't for GG I wouldn't have connected with certain sonatas and if it weren't for other pianists you wouldn't have connected with those pieces, and look now, we're both enjoying the same pieces performed differently).

This right here is a perfect example:

 

Somebody needs to compile Gould's gotcha's. On Beethoven: "He is one composer whose reputation is based entirely on gossip."

 

I don’t think Glenn Gould ‘had’ anything except a case of being Glenn Gould. Trying to define, or label a person and the multitude of influential factors involved in what makes them who they are under a diagnosis seems to me misguided. As long as we aren’t causing harm to others, we have the inherent and absolute right to become all that we are on our own terms with whatever conscious choices, or quirks of personality that entails without being told we are pre-disposed or bound to any disease or condition. I think the field of psychology offered some brilliant and beautiful insights, but it often ascribed them to a tome of conditions and diseases, rather than as being dependent on the process of our intuitive and creative transitory nature. I believe we can change our minds -and so the resulting chemical changes in the brain- our minds don’t change us. I just wanted to give another perspective on the analytical theories sometimes put out there about Gould, and as a precursor to saying, I’ve always found Glen Gould to be a sweet, intelligent guy with a great sense of humor, who had the guts to think for himself. Normal? God no. I hope I’m not either –but then again, I don’t think anyone should be. We are all too unique to be contained by that word except in terms of our shared common humanity,

 

I don't think Glenn Gould 'had' anything except a case of being Glenn Gould.

Trying to define, or label a person and the multitude of influential factors involved in what makes them who they are under a diagnosis seems to me misguided. As long as we aren't causing harm to others, we have the inherent and absolute right to become all that we are on our own terms with whatever conscious choices, or quirks of personality that entails without being told we are pre-disposed or bound to any disease or condition.

I think the field of psychology offered some brilliant and beautiful insights, but it often ascribed them to a tome of conditions and diseases, rather than as being dependent on the process of our intuitive and creative transitory nature. I believe we can change our minds -and so the resulting chemical changes in the brain- our minds don't change us.

...I don't think anyone should be. We are all too unique to be contained by that word except in terms of our shared common humanity,

I get your points, but some of them appear to assume some sort of judgement about Glenn Gould. GG was a unique individual who impacted a lot of lives including his many followers and listeners as well those more close to him. He was, for the most part, able to be all he wanted to be and he made his own decisions -such as leaving public performing- without being manipulated or influenced by others.

Individuals with tremendous gifts and intelligence, but saddled with mental aberrations have always confused and frustrated those who are moved by their accomplishments. IMO, rather than being a misguided endeavor, there is value in trying to understand the various mental conditions that might have afflicted an individual such as GG not because we are somehow defining him by those disorders, but because it may give us some insight into the complex makeup of one form of the genius mind. Also, IMO, the more we understand conditions such as the autism spectrum the more likely they will have less of a stigma and more efforts will be made to find cures for them.

Btw, while there may be some situations where we can 'change our minds and so chemical changes in our brains' that premise -at least so far with our present knowledge- cannot be universally applied to all mental conditions, particularly the more severe ones.

 

In my own opinion, Glen Gould had no real sign of autism at all. He was probably haunted by some psychotic thoughts, that could be classified as obsesive-compulsive...his hot/cold problems, chair usage...hyper sensitivity, even some interpretations...but he was almost close to normal most of the time. Still with all his medical problems he was amazing...

 

You do know people with Aspergers syndrom are normal?

 

According to his girlfriend and other friends, Glenn had some paranoid delusions, fantasizing that he was going to be poisoned. I also know he took medication for his injuries, and also medication for the side effects of other drugs...that must have done him some damage.
Other than that he was amazing. I loved his personality, as flawed as he was. He was charming, had a wonderful skill for jokes. He was also a nice looking guy. It's a pity he was hindered by nasty thoughts. This make your life miserable. He left us his genius. His Bach recordings are second to none. I didn't like his Mozart or Beethoven but bits and pieces from other composers are still amazing. It's a pity he kept humming through his playing. As for pianists I prefer Michelangeli or Radu Lupu...But I love Glenn Gould as a whole.
I am so sad I didn't have the chance to meet him live.

 

I am so sad I didn't have the chance to meet him live.

Well Sabrina, that makes two of us...

 

The notion that there is some universally valid standard of "normality" and that everyone who deviates from it even slightly by some quirky habits or weird thoughts has a mental illness/disorder is certainly a dangerous one. We would probably have very little art left if everyone fit into the "normal" image.

 

Those interested in Glen Gould should get the Glenn Gould Reader, a large collection of writings of interest and quite a few horselaughs. Cheap used.

http://www.amazon.com/Glenn-Gould-Reader-Tim-Page/dp/0679731350/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449042324&sr=1-1&keywords=glenn+gould+reader

 

Hi Gouldanian
I'm researching Glenn Gould for a dissertation, and you seem to be a veritable authority! I would love to consult some of your sources — would you be able/willing to point me in the right direction? I'd be happy to discuss the project in more detail if you'd be interested.
Many thanks and best wishes
cellacan

 

Hi Gouldanian
I'm researching Glenn Gould for a dissertation, and you seem to be a veritable authority! I would love to consult some of your sources - would you be able/willing to point me in the right direction? I'd be happy to discuss the project in more detail if you'd be interested.
Many thanks and best wishes
cellacan

Gouldanian's last activity on TC was in December 2016, cellacan, so he may or may not see / respond to your post.

TurnaboutVox
Moderator

 

I am from the UK and on the spectrum. My official diagnosis is Asperger's Syndrome moderate to severe. Medics use the ICD 10 last time I looked and Asperger's is still the correct terminology. Anything sociable is difficult along with nasty heightened senses but I thank the condition for giving me an interest in classical music. I also have bipolar.

 

I was diagnosed with aspies about a decade ago...
also schyzotypal, bipolar, and adhd.

(i was unable to watch the video...) but this post has led me to listen to some Glenn Gould... after reading a little on him. :O wow, first Sorabji, then Gould... who will i learn about next. :O

 

I was diagnosed with aspies about a decade ago...
also schyzotypal, bipolar, and adhd.

(i was unable to watch the video...) but this post has led me to listen to some Glenn Gould... after reading a little on him. :O wow, first Sorabji, then Gould... who will i learn about next. :O

Stay long enough with us and you will find out.

 

It has long been theorized that Bartok had what was then called Asperger's. Two other artists whose presence on the autism spectrum I have suspected are M.C. Escher and Stanley Kubrick.

 

Mark, do you have a source on that (concerning Bartók)?

 

Not off the top of my head, but I remember reading/hearing it more than couple of times over the years -- including from my personal neurologist.

 

My son had great difficulty socializing in school, sometimes acting out violently. He was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, back when it still existed. My ex-wife took it upon herself to research everything known about the subject at the time, and became a stubborn advocate to find him the right school and the right medication. He's now a college graduate with a job, a circle of friends, a girlfriend, and a life pretty much unimpeded by his atypical mental wiring.

It's all a spectrum. For instance, my ex-wife and I agree that I myself am about one-third Aspergian. Yes, I have A@# Syndrome.

 

A** boogers.

but yeah, i always think of it as a thing to call kids who are basically rebelious or have grown to dislike their classmates due to being bullied.
Which then we are put on these pills that turn us into zombies and we reluctantly take them... and suddenly before we know it we start to become more influencial with other peoples opinions of us... we then get depressed and later shut our selves in our rooms and work obsessively on what we love the most where everything else is not important even life it's self.

which then some of us grow out of this rebelious phase in our lives and secretly live in the shadows with a delusional mind... and suddenly we become world renowned in the field that we happen to have gained an obsession about... usually by accident. Then after a while the ones who have ended up diagnosing us with aspergers are all inclined to reanalyze their situations.

My obsessions went like this
Psychology (2001-2009)
Sociology (2003-2014)
Anime (2012-present)
Music (1998-present)
Cute animals (full life minus the time i was meds... i ended up ignoring them...)
Martial Arts (2004-2007)
My self (2010-2017)
Traveling the world (1986BCE-2013CE)
Time Travel (unknown time source...and duration)
Occult Practices (1998-present)
Discordianism (2010-present)
making obscure lists and stories that are actually true. (2009-present.)

 

I think the whole field of psychiatry is suspect. The brain is very complicated, and it is plastic, so it can't be pinned down as to what is 'normal.' BTW, I am not a Scientologist, but I agree with them on this.

The brain, being plastic, is shaped by cognitive experience, and can be changed by it as well.

The psychiatric drugs which are used are not fully understood as to why they work; they just try them and observe. An example is the drug Depakote, which was used to treat epilepsy. It "smoothes out" brain waves which cause seizures, and thus is used to "smooth out" mood swings of so-called bipolar disorder. It was a shot in the dark which produced desired results. Ever seen a person with "flat affect?" They act like zombies, with very little excitement or emotion. Depakote is a mineral salt, related to lithium.

Risperdal, a so-called "anti-psychotic" drug (actually just targeted tranquilizers), can cause "tardive dyskinesia" if taken for long periods. The term "tardive" is derived from the same root used in "retarded." Its targeted dialing of the brain also unfortunately has the shotgun effect of disabling that part of the brain which controls involuntary movement. Thus, the 'tics" begin.

Psychiatry itself has changed over the decades from a sort of inner-experience based pseudo-religion (Freud, Jung) into a pseudo-science based on observation of external behavior (Pavlov, B.F. Skinner, behaviorism) which yields "data."

There are biases in civilized culture; what is "normal" may just be an arbitrary preference for what works best in a society which values efficiency and consistency over artist fancy.

I'm glad Glenn Gould was exactly the way he was, flaws and all, and that there are differences in the way brains are cognitively wired; otherwise, we could all be accountants.

 

I think the whole field of psychiatry is suspect. The brain is very complicated, and it is plastic, so it can't be pinned down as to what is 'normal.' BTW, I am not a Scientologist, but I agree with them on this.

The brain, being plastic, is shaped by cognitive experience, and can be changed by it as well.

The psychiatric drugs which are used are not fully understood as to why they work; they just try them and observe. An example is the drug Depakote, which was used to treat epilepsy. It "smoothes out" brain waves which cause seizures, and thus is used to "smooth out" mood swings of so-called bipolar disorder. It was a shot in the dark which produced desired results. Ever seen a person with "flat affect?" They act like zombies, with very little excitement or emotion. Depakote is a mineral salt, related to lithium.

Risperdal, a so-called "anti-psychotic" drug (actually just targeted tranquilizers), can cause "tardive dyskinesia" if taken for long periods. The term "tardive" is derived from the same root used in "retarded." Its targeted dialing of the brain also unfortunately has the shotgun effect of disabling that part of the brain which controls involuntary movement. Thus, the 'tics" begin.

Psychiatry itself has changed over the decades from a sort of inner-experience based pseudo-religion (Freud, Jung) into a pseudo-science based on observation of external behavior (Pavlov, B.F. Skinner, behaviorism) which yields "data."

There are biases in civilized culture; what is "normal" may just be an arbitrary preference for what works best in a society which values efficiency and consistency over artist fancy.

I'm glad Glenn Gould was exactly the way he was, flaws and all, and that there are differences in the way brains are cognitively wired; otherwise, we could all be accountants.

The whole field of psychiatry is suspect? Are you an expert on psychiatry? Every so often on this forum someone slams psychiatric treatment with anecdotes. Ever seen someone totally mentally out of control and then see them a few weeks later when they are stabilized with medication and able to function normally or close to normally?

Focusing on side effects without mentioning the benefits of drugs is misleading to people who may be helped by them.

 

Beware the diagnosis of historical figures... I watched a documentary about Bach where John Eliot Gardiner, on the intelligence of a few of Bach's letters and some comments made about him in his lifetime, went to a psychology professor and she just threw the label 'paranoid schizophrenia' at him, an instant diagnosis. Her basis was the fact that it seemed to be a trend in his life that he thought: 1) the world was against him (which it was a lot of the time), 2) that people were always getting in his way (which they were), and 3) that he was always blaming the petty civil servants and church officials trying to censor him and restrict him (which they did, and all the time). As an acute observer in the comments noted, Bach's only 'condition' was 'being a musical genius in 18th century Germany'.

 

Just because they're all out to get you doesn't mean you're not paranoid.

 

This thread has gone off topic. One post has been removed and so have any others quoting it.

The thread is temporarily closed while we decide what to do.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thread re-opened. Please stick to music and try to be poilte.

 

Sigh, so the most definative post on how folk with aspies think... was deleted...
o well...

 

I'm reading a book about Alma Mahler. It also talks about her difficult marriage with Mahler. I read that and thought: Mahler had an autistic spectrum disorder. The author does not mention that or hint at it. But the description of how Mahler acts, communicates etc. points to autism (I totally recognized a friend in it). I searched on Google and see that Mahler appears several times on lists of famous people with Asperger.

Overrepresented in classical music I think. Would be surprised if I don't have it. As an ironic family doctor once said: Bach is for autists.

But as someone once said, take a random group of people who are successful and happy and examine them. The doctors will always come with a disorder and with medicines.

 

When I grew up in the 1980s "autism" meant severely disabled children/people who could barely communicate and needed constant care or institutionalization.

It did not mean a vague and broad "spectrum" where almost any slightly spleeny and/or introvert person was "on the autism spectrum". I am not going through this whole thread but just a cursory glance at the last 150 years of psychology and psychiatry (or only 60 years, that's how far we are from electoshocks and lobotomy... this should be enough to be not too certain about what we diagnose or treat now, but underline twice "first of all, do no harm") should anyone make highly suspicious both at classifying more and more types of behavior as pathological (I am not going into the corresponding de-pathologization of other types of what seemed obviously problematic deviant behavior until a few decades ago). And even more suspicious of posthumuous psychiatric diagnoses of famous artists.

I recall that a guy I was acquainted with almost 20 years ago and who was a rabid Gould fan, claimed that Gould must have had a sense of polyphony instead of a sex drive (or sth. like that). I am pretty sure I also heard the claim that he was closeted gay.
Only a few years later it turned out that Gould had a long going affair, even living together for a few years with Lukas Foss' (separated) wife, Cornelia. So he apparently was a fairly normal heterosexual, regardless of his other behavior, a lot of which was admittedly quite odd (but he also cultivated this persona).