[amfortas]

Once again, I don't approve of the move or see much point to it. But the outrage seems a bit excessive as well. Last I checked, Tchaikovsky wasn't being sent to some internment camp. And even with a few cancellations here and there, in end this too shall pass, and his music will remain a concert staple. Come on, we're talking freakin' Tchaikovsky here.

 

[59540]

Once again, I don't approve of the move or see much point to it. But the outrage seems a bit excessive as well. Last I checked, Tchaikovsky wasn't being sent to some internment camp. And even with a few cancellations here and there, in end this too shall pass, and his music will remain a concert staple. Come on, we're talking freakin' Tchaikovsky here.

So it's meaningless, then. So why do it at all?

By the way this isn't the only instance of this type of thing.

 

[amfortas]

So it's meaningless, then. So why do it at all?

You'd have to ask someone who favors that choice. As I said, I don't.

By the way this isn't the only instance of this type of thing.

I'm sure it isn't, especially with a category as broad as "this type of thing." But again, I don't think a few instances of pulling Russian composers from concert programs will have much lasting effect--especially in the case of an old war horse like Tchaikovsky.

 

[59540]

...
I'm sure it isn't, especially with a category as broad as "this type of thing." But again, I don't think a few instances of pulling Russian composers from concert programs will have much lasting effect--especially in the case of an old war horse like Tchaikovsky.

Fine, but I dislike the sentiment behind it. There's no "overdone outrage", there's an objection. I have just a wee bit of political "outrage" fatigue.

 

[amfortas]

Fine, but I dislike the sentiment behind it. There's no "overdone outrage", there's an objection. I have just a wee bit of political "outrage" fatigue.

Understandable. On the other hand, I don't think outrage over current events in Ukraine is misplaced. It's all a question of how it's directed.

 

[59540]

Understandable. On the other hand, I don't think outrage over current events in Ukraine is misplaced. It's all a question of how it's directed.

If it's taken out on Tchaikovsky or Russian cat breeds, I'd say it's misplaced.

 

[mmsbls]

If it's taken out on Tchaikovsky or Russian cat breeds, I'd say it's misplaced.

That's possibly right, but there could be benefits. I heard someone who grew up in South Africa say that every action taken in the world that showed opposition to the South African apartheid government gave black South Africans a moral boost. Whether the action hurt the government or not, it showed people in South Africa that people cared about the plight of black South Africans. The sum total of such actions was seen as a force against the government.

 

[59540]

That's possibly right, but there could be benefits. I heard someone who grew up in South Africa say that every action taken in the world that showed opposition to the South African apartheid government gave black South Africans a moral boost. Whether the action hurt the government or not, it showed people in South Africa that people cared about the plight of black South Africans. The sum total of such actions was seen as a force against the government.

Well, and Belgians might have been cheered by Karl Muck's arrest and detention during WWI. And of course Germany lost. This sort of thing undertaken for the sake of "showing that people care" might be a bit much.

 

[mmsbls]

Well, and Belgians might have been cheered by Karl Muck's arrest and detention during WWI. And of course Germany lost. This sort of thing undertaken for the sake of "showing that people care" might be a bit much.

Maybe. I personally would prefer stronger action directed at the government. I have never lived through a situation like the present Ukraine or apartheid so I take the comments of someone who has seriously.

 

[59540]

Maybe. I personally would prefer stronger action directed at the government. I have never lived through a situation like the present Ukraine or apartheid so I take the comments of someone who has seriously.

Here's a comment from someone who's going through it right now:

The President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, said on Sunday the country is establishing an "international" legion for foreign volunteers who want to fight for the nation, according to Reuters.

Zelenskyy said in a statement: "This will be the key evidence of your support for our country."

 

[mmsbls]

Here's a comment from someone who's going through it right now:

I'm stunned. Do you honestly believe that someone involved in such situations would prefer people come and fight for their cause than people show indirect support by refusing to play music? Really?

Of course, they would prefer such direct action, but that preference in no way means that they don't appreciate indirect actions. I assume they would wish for all kinds of actions since not everyone can show direct support. I'd be interested if Zelenskyy publicly said, "Please do not show us indirect support." I simply believe the words of someone who has lived through such experiences.

 

[Forster]

I wonder how many other musical ensembles...that is, what percentage of those similar to Cardiff's...have taken similar action. Or is Cardiff's decision one of only a handful?

 

[59540]

I'm stunned. Do you honestly believe that someone involved in such situations would prefer people come and fight for their cause than people show indirect support by refusing to play music? Really?

Of course, they would prefer such direct action, but that preference in no way means that they don't appreciate indirect actions. I assume they would wish for all kinds of actions since not everyone can show direct support. I'd be interested if Zelenskyy publicly said, "Please do not show us indirect support." I simply believe the words of someone who has lived through such experiences.

I haven't heard of Zelenskyy pleading for people to squelch Tchaikovsky or to keep Russian Blues out of cat shows. The average Ukrainian right now probably couldn't care less what the Cardiff Philharmonic refuses to program.

 

[fbjim]

I think, canceling a performance of the 1812 was more a matter of good taste (given the piece's military programming) than any effective statement against the Russian Federation.


Certainly actions against the Russian Federation have historical precedent, but like I said, the Russian Federation is not the Soviet Union, nor the Russian Empire. Anti-apartheid was against a very specific regime, not against the historical culture of the south of Africa.

 

[fbjim]

That's possibly right, but there could be benefits. I heard someone who grew up in South Africa say that every action taken in the world that showed opposition to the South African apartheid government gave black South Africans a moral boost. Whether the action hurt the government or not, it showed people in South Africa that people cared about the plight of black South Africans. The sum total of such actions was seen as a force against the government.

I remember a story where Steven Van Zandt had to tell activists in South Africa to take Paul Simon (who had performed in South Africa) off a kill-list, because assassinating the guy who did "The Boxer" and "Bridge Over Troubled Water" was not likely to win anti-apartheid activists in South Africa any international fans.

 

[FrankinUsa]

Klemperer,in an interview comparing himself to Bruno Walter,called himself an "amoralist."
Are we seeing some thoughts here that can be categorized as "amoralist?"
Not asking about specific comments. Just a general question

 

[59540]

Klemperer,in an interview comparing himself to Bruno Walter,called himself an "amoralist."
Are we seeing some thoughts here that can be categorized as "amoralist?"
Not asking about specific comments. Just a general question

"Morality" doesn't necessarily equal "virtue acceptably signaled". For example a Ukraine flag emoji and the like are pretty easy stuff. Canceling performances of Tchaikovsky is as well, really.

 

[fbjim]

The statement by Cardiff was pretty clear that the removal of the Marche Slave and 1812 were done out of a sense of tact against playing military-themed program pieces amidst the outbreak of war. They did not, in fact, say that they removed Tchaikovsky as a statement against Russia.

In fact, multiple statements by the Cardiff Philharmonic have explicitly stated the motivations for the removal of the pieces as not being a statement against Russia, which seems to have been ignored in the discourse surrounding the removal (a surprisingly large discourse given the relatively small size of the Cardiff orchestra).

"Outrage culture" is a big media thing right now and applying the term to basically anything is an easy way to get attention. Never mind that nobody in the orchestra seemed especially outraged over anything.

 

[Forster]

I wonder what would happen if we cancelled outrage culture? Would that be like matter and anti-matter coming in contact?

 

[fbjim]

The idea of "outrage culture" and "virtue signaling" are pejorative terms that get applied to broader and broader subjects these days.

Essentially they are accusations of bad faith - that someone is only doing something to look good, feel good about themselves, or apply to things which are excessively performative (for instance - a rich man very loudly, and ostentatiously donating money to a charity - accompanied by a PR event). Theoretically, though, any act that someone does out of a sense of tact is "virtue signaling", because it constitutes an adjustment of our behavior to match not our personal sense of decorum, but the social decorum of our surroundings - and the fact that someone is doing something out of a sense of tact, rather than a sense of personal morality does not mean they are acting in bad faith. I sometimes swear like a sailor - but if I know someone who dislikes foul language is at a party, so I filter my language - is that "outrage culture", "virtue signaling", or simply a display of social tact?