Conducting in Opera Recordings

1902 Views 66 Replies 21 Participants Last post by MAS, 2 mo ago

philpam1

Discussion Starter · 2 mo ago

I imagine most opera lovers have favorite recordings of their favorite operas determined in large part by the singers. How big a role does the conducting play for you? Are there recordings that are at least partly spoiled for you by the conducting despite an excellent cast? Conversely are there recordings that are elevated for you by exceptional conducting?

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Tsaraslondon

· #2 · 2 mo ago

philpam1 said:
I imagine most opera lovers have favorite recordings of their favorite operas determined in large part by the singers. How big a role does the conducting play for you? Are there recordings that are at least partly spoiled for you by the conducting despite an excellent cast? Conversely are there recordings that are elevated for you by exceptional conducting?

Quite a bit. I avoid opera recordings conducted by Solti, especially Verdi, as I think his conducting is usually bombastic, over emphatic and lacking in lyricism. The more I listen, the more I've begun to appreciate Serafin in both Verdi and Puccini. Most of his recordings I have because of Callas, but I think he's seriously underrated.

I can't think of many recordings where the conducting makes up for an inferior cast, but De Sabata and Karajan in his first recording of Tosca are major factors in the success of those two recordings. Even with superior casts, they would not have achieved their classic status with different conductors at the helm. The Beecham La Bohème is another such recoding.

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Tsaraslondon

· #4 · 2 mo ago

VitellioScarpia said:
As a counterpart, the recently published recording of Turandot is largely successful, in my book, thanks to the contribution of Antonio Pappano in my estimation who delivers a sensitive and exciting performance of the opera.

I feel the same about his Aida. The conducting is superb, as is the contribution of the orchestra and chorus. Still, I note that it tends to be the last one I pull down from the shelves, as the singers just aren't up to the standard of those in earlier sets.

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Tsaraslondon

· #9 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

Woodduck said:
. Even though Victor de Sabata conducts Tosca brilliantly and contributes greatly to the classic status of his recording, we generally identify that recording as the "Callas Tosca," mentioning the other artists or conductor if we need to distinguish it from the "second Callas Tosca."

I'm not sure this is true, and, personally, I've come to think of it as the De Sabata Tosca, possibly because he seems to me to be the most important element in its success, and maybe because I don't think Tosca was that important to Callas as an artist. It's mostly because of this recording, and because she sang the role quite a lot at the end of her career, that she is so much associated with it. She didn't much like the role or the opera, and, apart from the unadverturous Met, didn't sing it at all between 1953 (the year of the De Sabata recording) and 1964. Despite the excellence of its cast, it is De Sabata's conducting that has elevated the recording to classic status.

On the other hand, Callas's participation in any recording means that most of the operas she particpated in are referred to by her name, even the Callas Parsifal!

We talk of the Callas Butterfly when referring to the 1955 recording, but the Karajan Butterfly, when referring to the one with Freni and Pavarotti, though Karajan conducted both.

Actually, now that I think of it, there are quite a few other Italian opera recordings that are generally referred to by their conductor's name, Don Carlo for one. The Giulini, the Solti, the Karajan or the Abbado, and so on. Also the Bohème with De Los Angeles and Björling is usually referred to as the Beecham, so is his Carmen with her, and, as far as I can remember, all other recordings of that opera are usually referred to by their conductors, other than of course the Callas Carmen.

Maybe it is Callas who is the exception to the rule. There are others too. Most of Sutherland's complete recordings are referred to by her name, not her husband's.

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Tsaraslondon

· #11 · 2 mo ago

Viardots said:
Based on Frank Hamilton's compilation of Callas' performance annals, apart from the Met performances in 1956 and 1958, she sang three nights of Tosca at the Teatro Carlo Felice, Genova in March 1954 and remember, there is that televised and filmed Act 2 with Tito Gobbi and Albert Lance in her Paris debut on 19 Dec 1958.

Fact checking aside, I agree that De Sabata's conducting plays a hugely important role in the 1953 EMI/UK Columbia Tosca attaining classic status and later critics' appraisal of it mostly attributes the success of the recording to the close-knit teamwork among the conductor and the principal singers rather than just focusing on Callas alone.

I'd forgotten about the Genova performances in 1954, and I wasn't really counting the Paris Gala concert. However it's safe to say she had little interest in the role. She never sang it at her cultural home of La Scala.

Tsaraslondon

· #19 · 2 mo ago

philpam1 said:
Based on reviews I've read I would say the De Sabata Tosca's critical reputation derives as much from Gobbi's performance as that of Callas. But guess whose name is featured in big letters on the cover!

As arguably the most famous soprano of the twentieth century, it's hardly surprising, though, is it? Somehow I have a feeling Gobbi wouldn't object at all. He was a great admirer and friend of "little Maria", as he called her, and also a generous colleague. He would have realised that the opera is called Tosca, not Scarpia, and mindful of the fact that it was her name that was selling the product. Indeed, in those 1960s performances of the opera in London and Paris, most people referred to it as the Callas/Gobbi Tosca. It was the poor tenor, who didn't get much of a look in.

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Tsaraslondon

· #20 · 2 mo ago

VitellioScarpia said:
^^^^

von Karajan anyone?

This is one of those myths that deserves a better look. Just who are the singers who were ruined by Karajan? Names and evidence, please. Many singers, including Callas, thought he was a singer's conductor, much more so than Solti, for instance.
Let's look at some of the candidates.
Freni. When she took on Elisabetta and Aida, she had already sung Amelia in Simon Boccanegra at La Scala under Abbado. She was no doubt mindful that she couldn't sing ingénue roles for the rest of her life and wanted to expand her repertoire. In any case, though her voice did change, it remained pretty healthy throughout a very long career. She was also pretty astute about her own limitations. Though offered it over and over again, she never sang Butterfly on stage, as she thought it was too heavy for her voice. Verdi's more transparent orchestration made roles like Elisabetta and Aida a safer bet for her.
Carreras. No doubt he shouldn't have gone on to sing heavier roles, like Don Carlo and Radames, but there are countless examples of lyric tenors doing the same thing without any help from Karajan (Di Stefano and Alagna anyone?) Carreras continued singing quite a few heavy roles after that too, none of them with Karajan conducting.
Ricciarelli. No doubt it was a very strange casting choice getting her to sing Turandot, but she never attempted it on stage. Nor for that matter did Sutherland, and, when Callas recorded it, it would have been beyond her in the theatre. (Nonetheless I am grateful that the studio recording affords us a glimpse of what she would have been like in the role in her early years.) Not so long ago I listened to the Karajan Turandot for the first time in several years. Ricciarelli, though obviously stretched, is not half as bad as I'd misremembered. You might think she could never have sung it in the theatre, but, then, so did she.
Dernesch. Maybe there are grounds here, but I'm not sure they even hold water. Having heard in the theatre, both in her soprano and mezzo days, I can attest to the fact that it was a pretty large voice. I also have a live recording of her singing the Dyer's Wife under Solti at Covent Garden. She has no trouble riding the orchestral storm Solti whips up, but the top is evidently under stress. Soon after this she withdrew from opera and re-trained as a mezzo, thus extending her career for quite a few years. No doubt some people will argue her unsuitability for the roles of Isolde and Brünnhilde (though her first Brünnhildes were actually for Scottish Opera, not for Karajan), but I honestly think her Leonore under Karajan one of the best on record.

When Jessye Norman first sang the Liebestod in concert with Karajan, an interviewer asked her if she would now sing the role on stage. Her answer was that, with Karajan in the pit, she would consider it, but not with anyone else.

I don't know where this myth of Karajan being a voice wrecker came from, but it makes no sense to me. In any case, aren't singers responsible for their own careers? He apparently wanted Schwarzkopf to sing Leonore, and she said she did very briefly consider it (she recorded Abscheulicher! with him) but quickly realised it wasn't for her and that was an end of the matter. They continued a long and fruitful career, making quite a few great opera recordings together.

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Tsaraslondon

· #22 · 2 mo ago

philpam1 said:
I completely agree. I'm a big Callas fan myself. This just happens to be one of those rare opera recordings where all the critics agree it's the best. That might not be the case if it had only an average Scarpia. One case where her collaborators maybe haven't received enough credit is in her recordings of Un Ballo in Maschera. The 1956 studio recording with De Stefano and Gobbi is marred for me by the dull conducting of Antonino Votto. I much prefer the live 1957 recording under Gavazzeni. That also includes Di Stefano who's fantastic in it. On both recordings it's Callas' name that's splashed on the cover yet the character of Riccardo dominates the opera. Perhaps Di Stefano wouldn't have objected either. My favorite recordings of Un Ballo are the two wth Bergonzi as Riccardo.

I have a feeling Di Stefano might have minded at the time. By the time of the late concerts he certainly wouldn't have, because he realised it was her name that was bringing in the money. Indeed I believe she only agreed to do those late concerts, because he was in financial difficulties.

As it happens, though Gavazzeni is a much more positive presence on the podium than Votto, I actually slightly prefer the studio Ballo because of Gobbi. Bastianini had a magnificent voice, but Gobbi finds a great deal more in the character. Callas and Di Stefano are pretty good in both.

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Tsaraslondon

· #27 · 2 mo ago

Op.123 said:
I believe she agreed to the tour as he needed to pay for his daughters cancer treatment or something like that?

Yes, I read that somewhere too.

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Tsaraslondon

· #28 · 2 mo ago

VitellioScarpia said:
I do not think that it is a myth. Karajan wanted Freni Turandot for his recording and he stopped talking to her when she turned him down. So he got Ricciarelli instead – who's defeated by the role at every step. It was good that she did not try it on stage... Ludwig was offered Isolde to which Böhm said "the man is a criminal". Carreras sang Don Carlo, Radamés, etc. under his guidance -- at the large Salzburg theater, no less. I know you love Dernesch but, unfortunately, she was completely unsuited for Brünnhilde at Karajan's request. Janowitz as Sieglinde at the Met barn, no less. Just because there are other who are even worst than him does not exonerate him from his own mistakes.

Of course singers have their own responsibility but it is hard to counter a big name conductor. Wouldn't you think?

The point is Freni turned him down and sang for many years after. Ricciarelli sang Turandot on record but, wisely. never attempted it in the theatre. Ultimately it is the singer who makes the choice. Ludwig did attempt some soprano roles in the theatre (Dyer's Wife, Leonore, Lady Macbeth) but, however successful these forays were, she decided herself that she was a mezzo, not a dramatic soprano. Carreras may well have first sung Don Carlo and Radames under Karajan's guidance, but are you suggesting that he wouldn't have sung those roles under someone else eventually anyway? I think it's highly unlikely. In any case, I think his Don Carlo is one of the best on record, and I much prefer him to some of those big voices, like Corelli, who miss the point of the character altogether. You could argue that Dernesch, being young and still forging her career, was tempted into roles unsuited to her, but, aside from Nilsson, there weren't many sopranos around in the 70s, who could do justice to those roles, and, on record at least, she is a radiant Brünnhilde. I wonder if she'd be remembered at all to day if it weren't for those Karajan recordings. Maybe she thought it was worth it.

You still haven't backed up your assertion that he ruined many singers. Ricciarelli's suitability or not for the role of Turandot is not the point. The point is that she carried on singing for many years after that. She sang some of the big Verdi roles for Abbado at around the same time as the Turandot recording, with limited success and eventually returned to the music of composers, who suited her better; Bellini, Rossini and Donizetti. There are plenty of instances of singers trying on a role for size then deciding it wasn't for them, Gedda and Lohengrin, for instance.

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Tsaraslondon

· #31 · 2 mo ago

Woodduck said:
Good points, but musicians and other musically knowledgeable people may think somewhat differently about this.

Operas differ in the degree to which they can be described as "vehicles" for singers, and on the whole Wagner's operas are, for good reason, less likely to be seen that way than many other popular works, even with respect to his principal roles, and even when those roles are sung by "star" singers. It seems intuitive that "singer's operas" are more likely to be thought of in terms of the singers, and that the conducting will get less attention. To a minority of us the conductor may be extremely important in Norma, Lucia, Trovatore, Romeo et Juliette, Fidelio, Carmen, Tosca, Turandot and Pagliacci, but I'll wager that the first, and for many opera lovers and in certain contexts the only, thing people want to know in these and other works is who is singing the major roles. I suspect that the star singers govern their choice of recordings, and that they think of these performances as "belonging" to these singers. Very few people, I suspect, buy or reject recordings of these operas because of the conducting, whereas discussions and purchases of Wagner recordings often place primary importance on the conducting.

I have no statistics to back up these impressions, but I think I observe plenty of evidence right here on the forum. On the other hand, it may simply be that I'm more particular about who conducts Parsifal than who conducts Boheme.

That's no doubt very true, and I'll admit that my choice of a recording is usually, even in Wagner, governed by who is singing. When Votto is on the podium for a Callas recording, I might regret the absence of some of her other collaborators (Serafin, Karajan, Gavazzeni, Bernstein or Gui, for instance) but it would never prevent me from listening to the recording. Indeed, when it comes to Norma, my favourite of her performances is the one from La Scala in 1955, which is conducted by Votto. He is an accompanist, no more, but, then, when Callas was on the form she was on that night, maybe that is all he needed to be.

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Tsaraslondon

· #35 · 2 mo ago

VitellioScarpia said:
Did I touch a nerve here? My comments were never intended to annoy anyone. I admire von Karajan tremendously but it is silly to pretend that people we admire are infallible. If you enjoy the product, more power to you. However, bad decisions, unsuitability or poor singing remain for everyone to hear.

However much we might admire a musician, we cannot ignore that they make mistakes and may encourage others to make them also. The fact that we may enjoy the performance of a vocally unsuited singer in a role more than a vocally suitable one is not relevant as the success of a performance is not just due to vocal weight. It still does not take away that someone is taking on an unsuitable role and encouraged by someone who also bears a responsibility to know better.

If a singer turned Karajan down for a recording or role does not negate the fact that he made a perilous request to a singer. Their survival or not after working with him is irrelevant in terms of his choices and their influence on them. Finally, I am not going to document something that is well documented elsewhere.

Addio, addio, speranza ed anima!

I rather resent your suggestion that you might have touched a nerve and it makes me think that maybe it is I who has touched a nerve with you. I asked for evidence and you haven't supplied any. Saying it's well documented elsewhere won't cut it, I'm afraid.

When it comes to Dernesch, I'm beginning to think that many are being wise after the event. Here is what John Steane had to say in The Grand Tradition, which was published in 1974. He has always been one of my favourite critics and it is largely due to him and this book that I started to appreciate and enjoy singers of the early recording period. Please note he is talking about recordings here.

"[Ridderbusch's voice has power] and it rings out with fine dramatic conviction. As does the voice of the soprano Helga Dernesch. She was first heard as the Siegfried Brünnhilde. radiantly effortless, glowing with health, and only very slightly less meaningful and intense than a more experienced singer might be. With the Götterdämmerung recording she had developed in depth, both of voice and feeling. In the fnal scene, the strength of the lower register combines with the firm control to achieve a perfect stillness in the phrase 'Rühe, du Gott'. But long before this supremely testing solo, we have realised that here is an artist who has the stature to meet its challenge. The noble, quiet response to Waltraute's appeal, and the nightmarish perplexity when confronted with Siegfried's apparent betrayal have registered as the work of a genuinely imaginative singer. When she comes then to record her Fidelio Leonore in a great performance under Karajan she seemed to have grown a stage further. There is a more consistent intensity here, and an art which conceals the great difficulties of the role more successfully than most. Above all, she is absolutely steady; her voice is well-produced and even throughout its range; and it is a voice of great beauty. As Ridderbusch is surely in a line with Friedrich Scorr, so Dernesch inherits from Leider: again an essential part of the tradition is maintained."

We may argue about her Brünnhilde and Isolde, but you'd go a long way to hear the roles sung anywhere near as well today. As for her Leonore, I prefer it even to Ludwig's acclaimed assumption (at this stage of her career Dernesch sounds more like a true soprano than Ludwig does) and I am absoutely sure there is nobody around today who is even half as good.

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Tsaraslondon

· #38 · 2 mo ago

Parsifal98 said:
Dernesch seems to be appreciated by some, but I do not think she was suited for Isolde and Leonore, both roles she recorded with Karajan. With her monotonous tone (probably enhanced by the fact that she was not singing in her fach) and her squeezed high notes, I cannot consider her to have been successful as a soprano. But she remained Karajan's favourite for these heroic and demanding roles.

Leaving Wagner aside for one moment, I don't know what sort of voice you seem to think is suitable for Leonore, but, having heard her in the theatre in the role as well as on record, I'd have said that she was eminently suited to it. On the recording her high notes don't seem squeezed to me and throughout she is a radiant presence. I'm not the only one to think so. See the John Steane quote I posted above. Nor was he alone. Her performance was very well reviewed when the set was first issued and the Penguin guide gave it five stars. It was only after she withdrew to train as a mezzo that people started to say that it was already evident. As I said, wise after the fact.

As for the Wikipedisa quote on Carreras, these critics, whoever they are, are entitled to their opinions, but it doesn't make them a fact. I have a feeling Carreras (like Di Stefano and Alagna) would have eventually taken on these roles anyway. And who is it says that Don José is a heroic role? It isn't and Gedda made two very successful recordings proving that fact.

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Tsaraslondon

· #41 · 2 mo ago

Parsifal98 said:
You quote critics such as John Steane and the Penguin guide to support your opinion that Dernesch had a suitable voice for Leonore but then dismiss those who criticized Carreras's choice of roles by saying that their opinions aren't facts. Well, the same applies to Steane and the Penguin guide: what they say aren't facts, but merely their opinions. Also, the passage you quoted where Steane writes that Ridderbusch and Dernesch are in a line with Schorr and Leider makes me slightly doubt the pertinence of his judgement on the matter.

As for being wise after the fact, I was not born when Dernesch was still active as a singer. I base everyting that I write on what I hear from recordings, and not on what people said at the time. What I hear is a tight and strident upper register. There is also a sort of constant frown in her voice which makes her sound monotonous. I prefer my Leonore to sound like Flagstad, Leider, Lehmann and Ludwig.

Concerning Carrreras, I should have phrased things differently. From this quote

the part that I find important is that Karajan encouraged it. Maybe Carreras would have eventually taken the role anyway, but we have no proof of that. What we have proof of is that Karajan encouraged a singer to take roles for which is voice was ill-fitted. And I am not of the opinion that Gedda was a successful Don José. His teacher, on the other hand, was.

At least I quoted critics. All you quoted was a wikipedia article. Sorry still not convinced.

Tsaraslondon

· #48 · 2 mo ago

Parsifal98 said:
I certainly do not want to question his love for Schorr and Leider, but his opinion that Ridderbusch and Dernesch are on the same level as them, or that they are their successors, is not one that I share. It is also the first time I read something like it. It is too strong of a statement if you ask me.

I'm going with Steane. At least I can check his credentials and, having read more than once (and it's qute a thick tome) The Grand Tradition (a book that covers singers on record from Patti to the early 1970s) I can attest to his deep knowledge and love for the subject.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._B._Steane

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Tsaraslondon

· #54 · 2 mo ago

Op.123 said:
I like your posts, lots of interesting controversial opinions, some of which I do agree with! But no, no we're off to la-la land now. If I ever go to the opera nowadays the conductor is the only one I might be able to compliment. And while it's hard to identify conductors from their conducting it's much easier to tell if you've got a good conductor or a bad conductor. I agree about British critics though, quite a few of them seem profoundly ill-informed.

Nowadays perhaps. I despair at the quality of some of the criticism I read, but there were many great critics in the past, John Steane amongst them. In all his writings I am aware of his appreciation of technique and voice quality, alongside his appreciation of great artistry. They don’t always go together.

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Tsaraslondon

· #58 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

philpam1 said:
I’m going to answer my own original post by saying that as a practical matter the singers tend to be more important. The most popular and critically praised recordings almost always have at least one star singer in a leading role. (The Toscanini Falstaff is a rare exception and it’s an unusual opera.) The obvious reason for that is they don’t tend to make and market commercial recordings without star singers. It’s also true that the companies will often hire superstar conductors, but not always. In the 1950s and 1960s a lot of recordings of Italian operas were led by Italian conductors who weren’t big international stars. I’m not talking about Serafin or Giulini but rather the likes of Alberto Erede, Antonino Votto, Renato Cellini, Franco Ghione, Gabriele Santini, Francesco Molinari-Pradelli, Jonal Perlea, etc. who critics have often derided, rightly or wrongly, as “routiniers.” On the other hand, having a “superstar” conductor isn’t guaranteed to satisfy everyone either. Solti, Karajan, Giulini have all had their detractors at one time or another.

Speaking purely for myself, I have strong likes and dislikes when it comes to singers but I don’t have favorite conductors. Sometimes I think X does a terrific job on some piece and other times I don’t like his interpretation at all. As far as operas recordings are concerned I’ve been satisfied with the conducting most of the time. Only rarely does it spoil a performance for me. Thus I dissent from the widespread admiration for the Klemperer Fidelio because of his stodgy tempos. It’s also rare that I’m super impressed by the conducting. Recently I heard the 1976 Solti recording of Der Fliegende Hollander and was blown away by the conducting. I had previously heard four other recordings. This isn’t meant to endorse everything he’s done though most of the time I do like his conducting.

I agree with your first paragraph completely. Even today, I doubt it matters one bit to admirers of her Nebs (yes, they exist) who is in the pit as long as she is singing. I do also take @Woodduck's point, though, that in Wagner, listeners are as likely, maybe even more likely, to be guided by their preference for one or another condcutor.

Turning to your second paragraph, I have similar feelings, but no doubt differernt preferences. I avoid Solti like the plague, for what others find thrilling and dramatic, I find all surface swagger and splash. For me, he rarely gets to the emotional heart of what he is conducting. Karajan is a favourite conductor, but there are certain recordings of his that I avoid like the plague. I think his early Philharmonia days are probably the best (the Strauss operas with Schwarzkopf, the recordings he made with Callas and his superlative Falstaff). I don't like his Decca recordings as much, feeling that he had become too preoccupied with beauty for beauty's sake. But there are later recordings I like as well (Salome, Don Carlo (aside from the awful sound), Tristan, and I much prefer his Fidelio to the 'classic' Klemperer. Then there are some of the later remakes that aren't a patch on his earlier efforts, Rosenkavalier and Falstaff for instance. In fact the only one of his late opera recordings I quite liked was his Ballo, which rather surprised me. I like his Ring too.

With others it can be swings and roundabouts. Take Simon Boccanegra. The Abbado is superb and justly renowned and all his singers excellent. However I would never want to be without the early Santini, because of three transforming performances (Gobbi, De Los Angeles and Christoff) all of whom I prefer to theri Abbado counterparts.

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Tsaraslondon

· #66 · 2 mo ago

MAS said:
Edo de Waart, hearing FROSCH with Dernesch as die Amme, told her, “if you continue to sing like this, you’ll be finished in two years.” Dernesch took it to heart and started to sing rôles with a lower center of gravity, then mezzo rôles which were more comfortable for her.

Do you mean the Dyer's wife? Die Amme is a mezzo role, though I don't know if she ever sang it.

I have a recording of her singing the Dyer's wife at Covent Garden under Solti. It's the only one of her soprano roles where I can hear the strain, and indeed she did take a break to retrain as a mezzo soon after these performances. Whatever the rights and wrongs of it, I really treasure her soprano period and the recordings she made then.

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