[Handelian]

Thanks for the input but I think I'll stay on my side of the divide, such as it is. We began this segment when I recalled--as an anecdote--my black co-worker's tale of owning an E-type Jag and being often pulled over for Driving While Black and of his experiences with the "repair" syndrome. The discussion could have ended right there.

It could but you chose to carry on.

 

[Handelian]

I pulled up to a traffic light and a young guy next to me driving a souped up rag top with a souped up sub woofer had "music" blaring, though all I could hear was, thump! thump! thump! I turned on my classical music station on my meek little OE car radio at modest volume just to distract me, not to annoy him. Also, I had my windows closed. Well, this kid stares at me and turns his "music" even further up in volume! My Weber overture was getting in the way of him enjoying his thump! thump! thump! Perhaps the lesson is, even if there is a racist message in Western classical music, it is one capable of being drowned out.

Pity you hadn't got Wagner on then he would have really had some competition.

 

[fluteman]

Pity you hadn't got Wagner on then he would have really had some competition.

Those of us willing to venture out beyond the 19th century need not rely on Wagner. That kid might have panicked had he heard some screaming police sirens.

 

[Strange Magic]

It could but you chose to carry on.

I know--it's All My Fault. Are you happy now? (not likely)

 

[Dan Ante]

I pulled up to a traffic light and a young guy next to me driving a souped up rag top with a souped up sub woofer had "music" blaring, though all I could hear was, thump! thump! thump! I turned on my classical music station on my meek little OE car radio at modest volume just to distract me, not to annoy him. Also, I had my windows closed. Well, this kid stares at me and turns his "music" even further up in volume! My Weber overture was getting in the way of him enjoying his thump! thump! thump! Perhaps the lesson is, even if there is a racist message in Western classical music, it is one capable of being drowned out.

Wouldn't it be gret if you could get a noise cancelling app for car and home. :trp:

 

[fluteman]

Wouldn't it be gret if you could get a noise cancelling app for car and home. :trp:

And at the office! Nothing worse than all sorts of noise when you're trying to do your job.

 

[Flamme]

I though classical music is inherently against '''modern'' music and for that and that bias alone it should be forbidden and its works scattered in 4 winds...

 

[millionrainbows]

I though classical music is inherently against '''modern'' music and for that and that bias alone it should be forbidden and its works scattered in 4 winds...

That doesn't make sense. How is classical music biased against modernism? If there is bias, that would be due to listeners' attitudes, wouldn't it?

The origins and historical legacy of classical music are entrenched in its very existence, but these things existed before modernism had occurred.

 

[chu42]

That doesn't make sense. How is classical music biased against modernism? If there is bias, that would be due to listeners' attitudes, wouldn't it?

The origins and historical legacy of classical music are entrenched in its very existence, but these things existed before modernism had occurred.

I would say that something like half of the repertoire considered to be "classical" music was controversial or poorly reviewed upon their premiere. Staples like Brahms' 1st Concerto, the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto, Beethoven's Grosse Fuge, Liszt's concerti, anything by Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner, etc.

Being "avant-garde" or "shocking the critics" was never something new to classical music. Every time there is a progression or development in music, there will always be conservative, reactionary, critics who want to see its downfall.

The classical foundation is simultaneously built on modern music and simultaneously biased against it.

 

[ArtMusic]

Except that the bias wears out over time and posterity takes over or the lack of it, either way, it disproves the "racist" theory.

 

[millionrainbows]

I would say that something like half of the repertoire considered to be "classical" music was controversial or poorly reviewed upon their premiere. Staples like Brahms' 1st Concerto, the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto, Beethoven's Grosse Fuge, Liszt's concerti, anything by Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner, etc.

Being "avant-garde" or "shocking the critics" was never something new to classical music. Every time there is a progression or development in music, there will always be conservative, reactionary, critics who want to see its downfall.

The classical foundation is simultaneously built on modern music and simultaneously biased against it.

As I hear it said on classical radio, "All music was once new."

 

[millionrainbows]

Except that the bias wears out over time and posterity takes over or the lack of it, either way, it disproves the "racist" theory.

It's after the fact. Race was not relevant back then. Nothing "wore out," but now, in the prevailing social atmosphere, it becomes relevant.
Classical music is what it always was, only now we see it differently. It proves, not disproves.

This shows the importance of "subjectivity" on the part of the listener.

Aren't there people here who are arguing the importance of subjective reactions? They say "Music can be anything I want it to be. I don't have to know its social context." I'm sure they would agree.

 

[mmsbls]

I removed a provocative picture that had nothing to do with music and no comments to connect it to the thread. Several other posts were removed that commented on that picture.

 

[ArtMusic]

It's after the fact. Race was not relevant back then. Nothing "wore out," but now, in the prevailing social atmosphere, it becomes relevant.
Classical music is what it always was, only now we see it differently. It proves, not disproves.

This shows the importance of "subjectivity" on the part of the listener.

Aren't there people here who are arguing the importance of subjective reactions? They say "Music can be anything I want it to be. I don't have to know its social context." I'm sure they would agree.

I was talking about the "shocking", "the new", or "the hip" in avant-garde music. Oh man! We need a new term for "avant-garde", they've been using it since 1950!

 

[hammeredklavier]

Being "avant-garde" or "shocking the critics" was never something new to classical music. Every time there is a progression or development in music, there will always be conservative, reactionary, critics who want to see its downfall.

The classical foundation is simultaneously built on modern music and simultaneously biased against it.

None of the classical music composers you mentioned had philosophies like "everything we do is music". Not even jazz and prog-rock are based around these philosophies.
The current classical foundation is NOT built on avant-garde philosophies. They're like cancer or parasite that feed on their prey called "classical music". Or gangrene that needs to be cut off. They only serve to encourage the thinking that guys such as Brahms, Saint-saens, Rachmaninoff didn't contribute anything fresh to classical music.

 

[Kjetil Heggelund]

I thought about the statement in the original post and maybe some part is right...In earlier times people didn't know any better than being racist and some still do, BUT classical music is still alive and no longer suffers from that (maybe I should say Western Art Music). That's what I hope anyway Did they even have the term "racism" back in history? Racism is a stupid thing and bums me out. We're all brothers and sisters!

 

[millionrainbows]

I thought about the statement in the original post and maybe some part is right...In earlier times people didn't know any better than being racist and some still do, BUT classical music is still alive and no longer suffers from that (maybe I should say Western Art Music). That's what I hope anyway Did they even have the term "racism" back in history? Racism is a stupid thing and bums me out. We're all brothers and sisters!

Insofar as classical music is exclusively European, it does not include non-European music of Africa, India, Japan, etc.
"Music theory" as it is presently formed and taught is drawn from this paradigm.
This would be appropriate if it were called "music theory of the 18th-19th centuries created by (white) Europeans," but it's not; it considers and promotes itself to be the highest form of music and musical thinking.

 

[millionrainbows]

The current classical foundation is NOT built on avant-garde philosophies. They're like cancer or parasite that feed on their prey called "classical music". Or gangrene that needs to be cut off. They only serve to encourage the thinking that guys such as Brahms, Saint-saens, Rachmaninoff didn't contribute anything fresh to classical music.

Your opinion strikes me as strange, and is, at the least, extreme.

 

[ArtMusic]

Insofar as classical music is exclusively European, it does not include non-European music of Africa, India, Japan, etc.
"Music theory" as it is presently formed and taught is drawn from this paradigm.
This would be appropriate if it were called "music theory of the 18th-19th centuries created by (white) Europeans," but it's not; it considers and promotes itself to be the highest form of music and musical thinking.

So do you think CM is inherently racist?

 

[millionrainbows]

So do you think CM is inherently racist?

No. How could it be inherently racist? Race was not nearly as relevant back then. That was Europe. America was just beginning.

Classical music is what it always was, only now we see it differently. In the prevailing social atmosphere, race and exclusivity becomes relevant, because this is a different world today.