We can't really say he's objectively a bad composer if there are people who appreciate his music, (regardless how many there are). "Classical music" is only regularly appreciated by about less than 1% of the total population. That doesn't make it bad music. The same logic applies to "avant-garde music".
But I still doubt how much of his musical philosophy overlaps with that of "classical music". I don't think general "avant-garde music" is "classical music". But, I would not say it's objectively worse than "classical music" in terms of artistic value. I know there are people who are into "modern art philosophy" stuff, I respect their preference.

'If you listen to Mozart and Beethoven, it's always the same,' he claimed. 'But if you listen to the traffic here on Sixth Avenue, it's always different.' https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/john-cage-manhattan-music

There are tons of genres out there that claim to be true descendants of "classical music". I just don't think it's fair to exclude them, yet include stuff like Cage within the boundaries of "classical music".

"Yuhki Kuramoto is a Japanese pianist and composer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuhki_Kuramoto
At school, he studied Rachmaninoff and performed as a part-time soloist in orchestras.
Kuramoto's style of music shows influence from a variety of composers from different periods. Most notably, by Rachmaninoff, Chopin and Ravel.
https://www.famousbirthdays.com/people/yuhki-kuramoto.html
He was considered an heir to Rachmaninoff and Chopin."

 

An interesting composer, and a groundbeaking thinker.

But great? That's subjective, but I don't feel it's a descriptive we should overuse.

 

"Do you consider John Cage a great composer?"

No.

 

I said no with a caveat—he's an interesting composer, but not great for me. I enjoy his works in a purely cerebral way, and while I appreciate his ideas, perhaps he would be less denigrated if he had less ideas and more substance.

But Cage will be Cage. I'm glad he existed.

 

https://www.talkclassical.com/38335-john-cage-again.html?highlight=John+Cage

https://www.talkclassical.com/4342-john-cage.html?highlight=John+Cage
Related topics

 

I've never heard his famous 4" 33".

 

Some philosophers say that Nothing Unreal Exists. I'm glad they cleared that up..

 

If he's a great composer, then I don't know who isn't.

 

No surprise here.

 

He reminds me of Satie or Feldman, he composed mostly slow dreamy music that could be termed ambient. Not really a fan of that kind of music.

 

Ambient music?

 

nor do I consider him even a major composer.

 

I'm surprised you even consider him a composer.

 

When I consider him at all, I mostly consider him a mere gadfly, or a bull who enjoyed pushing china off of shelves. I hardly deem that a creative act, at least in any constructive sense. (Apparently we are forbidden from considering him a charlatan or a fraud, due to some assumption of sincerity.)

 

I don't know why you think that. If you think he's a charlatan say it.

I listen to his music and respect what he accomplished. Whether he is considered a composer, writer, or philosopher - it doesn't change my enjoyment and interest in his work. Nor do I suspect it will alter his historical importance - for good or bad depending upon your orientation.

 

You’re better off with Nicholas Cage

 

There are some Cage pieces that fairly listenable; pieces for prepared piano; the String Quartet to name some. Much else by Cage seems better discussed than enjoyed which is point behind conceptual art. I was once taking a summer class at a local college and during the same week, the college was hosting mycological convention where mushroom enthusiasts from all over the area were holding meetings. I got to talking to some of them and when I mentioned John Cage they all knew who he was and revered and admired him for all he did to promote mycological/mushroom enthusiasm.

 

I already explained the reason that was typically given.

 

I am not a fan of Cage's music, but I do appreciate anyone that pushes boundaries.

I've only heard a few things by him that I find moderately interesting. The Seasons, Fifty-Eight, Two4, Sixty-Eight.

So, my assessment is, interesting thinker, minor composer.

 

So, my assessment is, interesting thinker, minor composer.

This is pretty much my assessment as well, and I answered 'no' in the poll. I do acknowledge he has had some influence on some music that I enjoy, for example on Takemitsu. But I don't consider Cage a good composer never mind a great composer.

 

I enjoy some of the music of John Cage. I don't enjoy some of the music of Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert ....

I would agree with the contention that Mozart, Beethoven, and Schubert are "great composers." I rather respect Cage moreso as an "artist" in a more general sense, one with a philosophical bent who used sound (and sometimes the absence of it) as a vehicle for communicating his artistic/philosophical fancies.

I'm pleased to have a respectable collection of discs by Mozart, Beethoven, and Schubert (among others) and I've heard enough of their music to have found pieces I absolutely love and others I could pass on. I'm pleased to have a rather substantial collection of Cage recordings, too, even if I feel somewhat guilty having such "documents" as Cage himself seemed insistent against recording music, preferring "in the moment" creation of musical soundscapes. I like some of Cage's music, and I can pass on other of it.

Because of Cage's influence on late 20th century artistic thinking, I believe we must value his contributions to our cultural history. They have made their mark, even on those who consciously reject them. That, too, means the art is in contention for consideration and evaluation.

Do you have to like Cage's music (art)? No. You don't have to like Mozart, Beethoven, or Schubert, either. But I know that were I to become an artist of any sort, I could not approach my tasks at hand without consideration of what Cage has laid down for us as artistic (and philosophical, and aesthetic) possibilities. For that he achieves a certain greatness.

 

"Because of Cage's influence on late 20th century artistic thinking, I believe we must value his contributions to our cultural history. They have made their mark, even on those who consciously reject them."

Huh? Cage has had zero influence on me.

 

Hell yes. Sorry to be in the minority, though I'm not entirely surprised.

 

Yeah, I too am not surprised and even said so a few pages up. No matter how unimportant the anti-Cagians claim he is they cannot help going on and on about him.

To me he is a very interesting composer, whose music I've found to be remarkable and often enjoyable. You can never say you've heard one of his pieces since often different performances/recordings produce very different sounding results. He is unique and inventive - he makes me think about music in ways no other composer has done.

I ignore the naysayers and just enjoy the music.

 

I don't think he is unimportant, I just don't think composition is his strength. Ideas are. I enjoy some of his percussion music from time to time, because it has a certain rhythmic freshness. I could see this kind of thing inspiring some ideas in a good composer, but Cage himself was not in my view. I was interested in him for a time, listened to a lot of his pieces, wasn't looking for a reason to dislike him or anything, to me it just became apparent that composition itself was not where his talents were. I believe he has more or less admitted this himself.

 

In any event he continuing composing right until the end of his life and his list of compositions is fairly extensive.

 

Yes, beyond any shadow of doubt in my mind.

 

No. .

 

I consider him to be a joke, one that's getting old.

 

I find it much more interesting to watch this performance than to listen to it.

Compare these performances. The one above seems a lot more accurate than this one below by Tudor. I don't think he's playing all the notes, or right notes from a few spot checks in the first part. I suspect he didn't think some would do their due diligence. Really winging it there.

Here is a link to the score

http://en.scorser.com/Out/300586856.html

 

82% says no, so..........

 

Which says more about TC than John Cage. Unfortunately.

 

He's a composer far more talked about than listened to. I've never seen nor heard his music scheduled or played in concert. It's difficult to think of anyone with those characteristics being great in any way.

 

It would seem you are not going to the right concerts.

Undoubtedly. Even if 80% of the people voted "yes", it would say more about TC than John Cage, although one could probably be able to infer, or at least suggest, one or two things about Cage from any kind of results. Still, such polls, especially if "great" is in the title, are in the end only a survey about individual responses.

Nevertheless, as many members have noted, it takes more than "I like the composer" to say he or she is great.

[...]

I've noticed that TC is really caught up with the idea of "greatness." Which I think is somewhat odd. All I will ever say is whether I like a composer's music. "Greatness" is not something I care about, since I consider it the product of the test of time - not determined by objective metrics which can be identified and calculated for relatively new works. There is plenty of "great" music i.e. music that has been valued for centuries, that I don't listen to because I don't find it interesting. Most orchestral music is not something I care about.

Of course there is other "great" music that I do find interesting and listen to - but not because it is "great" simply because I find it interesting and like the way it sounds. The music of Machaut, Palestrina, or the chamber music of Schumann, Brahms, Debussy, for example.

However, even by the test of time, John Cage has proven to be an enduring composer with new recordings of his music appearing regularly more than 100 years after his birth.

I voted in the poll interpreting the term "great" as "interesting or favorite".

Just because you label someone as "conservative and having trouble tolerating..." etc., it doesn't say anything about whether they are right or wrong.

There isn't any real right or wrong here. You think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong.

I agree. Funny that this needs to be pointed out.