Bach is my favourite composer, while his period (baroque) is one of my least favourite. Now, if that's not a strong voice, I don't know what is.

 

I feel like the undertone of this question is "I'm currently enjoying Beethoven more than Bach and Mozart, and I'm trying to figure out why." The individuality of a composer's material is more likely to pass you by if you don't find personally find it striking. As someone who would find it hard to pick a favorite between them, I think they all have a pretty even force of character. I'm not even sure these three particularly stand out in that area.

Most above average composers sound distinctly like themselves to about the same degree, in my opinion. Does Beethoven really sound like Beethoven more than Verdi does like Verdi, or Chopin like Chopin? Brahms and Schumann are two I might hesitate to pick, but I don't like them very much and so I might just be deaf to their personalities. What do you always notice people say about the eras or genres of music they don't like as much? It all sounds the same.

It's almost comical to think about putting on Bach's Great Fugue in g minor or Mozart's 17th piano concerto after reading this question. The opening seconds of those pieces are as supercharged with individuality as any other pieces I could name.

 

It is certainly true - if only a matter of degree - that a great many of his works, although recognisably Beethoven, have very distinctive and unique characters. I don't know if that means his voice is "stronger"

 

In Beethoven's era music was beginning to be understood as a mode of personal expression. Up until that point, generally speaking, individuality wasn't valued for its own sake. Having "ones own voice" wasn't a thing yet. Which is not to say Mozart and Bach don't have clearly identifiable personal styles. It's just that it wasn't on the list of important aesthetic values. A Renaissance master painter once said: "He did it his own way because he didn't know how to do it right." I imagine Bach would have understood that statement perfectly.

So, the phenomenon you cite is perhaps best understood as a change in aesthetic sensibility from one era to another rather than a strength one composer possesses and others don't. Another case of kiwis versus avocados.

 

I have no idea what that question means.

 

I think what the OP is hearing is simply the rhythmic aspect of Beethoven's music, which appeals more to modern listeners because of repetition. When you think of it, repetition is key to rhythm. Listen to all the repetitive themes and accompaniment figures in Symphony no. 6.

 

I think what the OP is hearing is simply the rhythmic aspect of Beethoven's music, which appeals more to modern listeners because of repetition. When you think of it, repetition is key to rhythm. Listen to all the repetitive themes and accompaniment figures in Symphony no. 6.

Mozart and Bach also use a lot of repeats in their music, so I don't really get this comment.

 

I think each has an instantly recognizable style. Beethoven's is just the most dramatic and emotional. So if that's what you're looking for (and I usually am), his music will strike you more.

 

The instruments and their way to be used were different for each 3 composers.

JS Bach, WAM or LvB have different settings in terms of orchestration, instruments used and so on.

I would say Symphonies from Beethoven have much more power (strong voice?) than those by Mozart, but then I would say an Organ masterwork from Bach has more of it than a great Beethoven Sonata?

This question is not so clear lol.

 

I'm not the best with my words, but what I mean to say is, from one work to the next, there seems to be more variation with Beethoven compared to the to the other two.

That doesn't make it superior, it's just an observation.

 

This is very different in meaning from the original question, which I thought was more clear. Beethoven had a more individual voice starting from his middle period. Mozart is more similar to Haydn, Bach to Telemann, although it's easy to tell them apart. It's similar to painting. I heard even experts couldn't tell Rembrandt from his followers. Monet was somewhat similar to Pissarro. While Picasso, Van Gogh and Matisse were more individual, or idiosyncratic

Not to say any one is better. Debussy also obviously had a unique voice.

 

It's funny, because classical listeners are always saying that "melody" is a large part of what makes classical music great, yet, Beethoven is not what I would call a "great melodist" like Tchaikovsky. Many of Beethoven's "ideas" are rhythmic or harmonic in nature. Not a put-down, because it seems that he had other "fish to fry," and these worked, but were rhythmic or harmonic. Examples are seen in the first movement of the Sixth, above. Sure, we hear the great, long flowing melody which he states at the start, but much of the rest is taken up by rhythmic ideas.
Similarly, in the Ninth, the "transitional" material at 2:28- is harmonic, not overtly melodic.

 

I'm not sure I hear Beethoven as being heavily rhythmic, to me Mozart feels easier to tap my feet to which makes me think of having strong rhythm.

 

I'm not thinking in terms of rhythm as tempo or overall beat; I'm thinking of Beethoven's "musical ideas," which seem more rhythmic than anything. They are short little phrases which repeat, almost as accompaniment. They sort of fade into the background. These are all over in the Sixth.

You have to distinguish between rhythmic, harmonic, and melodic ideas. For example, Bach's Prelude No. 1 in C major from WTC is what I would call a "harmonic" idea, since there is no melody (until they put "Ave Maria" on top of it), and the rhythm is steady and repeating, but not really an "idea." The harmonic idea is the way the chords gradually change. That's the idea of the whole piece.

 

I would consider Bach and Mozart as equals, perhaps superior to Beethoven's individuality, with greater skills in harmony, refinement and counterpoint. But Beethoven exceeded them in his raw emotional power because, in addition to his moments of peace and beauty, he was far, far more angry, emotionally turbulent, overtly passionate and rebellious than both of them combined. I hear that tremendous power and strength of voice being unleashed in his symphonies. Boom! And I doubt whether Bach and Mozart would ever have considered taking on Fate and trying to deal with it on equal terms or kicking it in the ***. It would have been considered a sacrilege or too impolite. Yet Beethoven remained fearless.

 

. I hear that tremendous power and strength of voice being unleashed in his symphonies. Boom! And I doubt whether Bach and Mozart would ever have considered taking on Fate and trying to deal with it on equal terms or kicking it in the ***. It would have been considered a sacrilege or too impolite. But Beethoven sounded fearless.

This is the best specific example of the differences I've seen in the thread, the "Boom!" "Don Giovanni!!!!!" comes close, but not quite.

 

Is Beethoven easier to distinguish compared to Bach and Mozart if hearing an unknown piece?

 

"JS Bach, WAM or LvB have different settings in terms of orchestration, instruments used and so on"

Ojoncas (or anyone), are you able to give specific examples of instrumentation that identifies Beethoven and instrumentation that identifies Mozart?

 

Are you able to give examples of instrumentation that identifies Beethoven and instrumentation that identifies Mozart?

For Beethoven: Moonlight, Fur Elise, Eroica, Patoral Symphony, 9th.
Mozart: Piano Sonatas and at least last two symphonies.

I hope that answers your question.

 

No, what I meant was "Beethoven used french horns and flutes together a lot with a string tremolo." "Mozart used flute and horn as accents with the main theme in the strings." Note this is just examples of the type of answer I'm looking for. No way am I suggesting that Beethoven and Mozart did exactly these things.

 

I actually hear more advanced harmonic ideas in Bach than I do in Mozart.

 

Does harmony mean the notes that support the main melody?

 

All three had strong character - but in different styles.

 

Does Beethoven Have the Strongest Voice of the Big Three? I dunno, I never heard him sing...ba-da-bing!

 

I think that Beethoven has more stylistic variety than Mozart and Bach (people talk about Beethoven's early, middle and late styles, but this is not true for the other two great composers). Also, in my opinion his music, particularly that from his middle period, may overall have more impact on the listener than that of Mozart and Bach ("Tan-tan-tan-taaaan"!! What before the fifth symphony had such an immediate appeal?). This, however, does not mean that Mozart and Bach doesn't have a strong voice, and actually the more I listen to them the more I'm convinced they do. They have different styles, and I couldn't say which of them has the "strongest" voice, for their voices are individual and unique.

 

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I understand what Brahms meant, at least in the way I hear music, I would like to understand this better myself. The best way I can put it is Beethoven didn't seem to use dissonance to add color, or to create a richness of texture in his works for example in the introduction of Mozart's Symphony No. 40.

Or in this Bach Chorale:

Listen to this dissonance that happens throughout this Bach piece, a striking example of it at 1:24

 

I think I get what Brahms was saying, at least about dissonance. When Beethoven uses dissonance, he often hits you over the head with it - forte, sforzandi, and all. It stands in direct opposition to the more consonant portions of the music. This is not to say it can't be very effective - listen to the development section of the Eroica's first movement for instance.

But Mozart's dissonance usually grows organically from his music. Hearing it's like tasting a strange but flavorful food for the first time (I remember, for instance, the first time I ate Thai food). The effect is an intensification of the emotions of music, as in the Andante of his 40th Symphony.

Beethoven couldn't have written that. He was no Mozart. But of course Mozart couldn't have written the Eroica, even if he had lived that long. He was no Beethoven.

 

The big three are Beethoven (well done), Liszt and R. Strauss. (here you missed the target, my friend :lol: ) Beethoven has the strongest voice in Symphonies and Sonatas, Liszt in the piano as an entity, and Strauss in Lied and post romantic opera. A win-win situation. Period. :lol:

 

The big three are Beethoven (well done), Liszt and R. Strauss.

This is nothing short of weaponizing bizarrerie.

 

I don't see "dissonance" as being the key (the key to what?), but the use of diminished seventh chords. This is really what caused the "deconstruction" of tonality by later composers. I hear diminished sevenths in all three composers. Beethoven (late Quartet in F) saw that diminished sevenths could be transformed into dominant flat-nines, turning the V-I on its ear full circle, and opening the door to chromaticism. I suspect that Bach and Mozart were well aware of this feature of diminished sevenths, but just didn't act on it as decisively as LVB.

 

Your analysis is anachronistic and implies that any of these composers was using or thinking in 12 equal - which is pretty far away from reality. HIP performance should also sound quite different, because many meantone chords lose their septimal colour (I'm talking about the various augmented sixths, altered dominants and "symmetrical" chords that should not be really symmetrical in a historical performance)

 

The OP asks about the “strongest voice”

STRENGTH: the quality or state of being physically strong.

Synonyms: power, brawn, brawniness, muscle, muscularity, burliness, sturdiness, robustness, toughness, hardiness, lustiness; More vigor, energy, force, might, forcefulness, mightiness.

Who talks about Bach and Mozart in those brawny terms? No one. Beethoven is the only one who comes close with his own explosive power and it is not necessarily related to his use of dissonance or complexity of counterpoint, but raw emotional power that’s personal. Slam dunk.

STRONG: able to withstand great force or pressure.

Synonyms: secure, well built, indestructible, well fortified, well defended, well protected, impregnable, impenetrable, inviolable, unassailable

Beethoven’s symphonies are architecturally strong and built like a brick house. He cared less what others thought of him and resisted the force of pressure of his deafness. Bach and Mozart were hardly weaklings when it came to power and strength but it was more controlled and refined as a creative force. They never raged over a lost penny. It was Beethoven.

 

Beethoven versus commissioning: The 4th and 5th Symphonies were commissioned by Count Franz von Oppersdorff, who paid LvB handsomely. Many other of his great works were written on commission (including the Razumovsky quartets and the central three of the late quartets) and most of the rest for sale to publishers -- good money there as well!

The idea that Beethoven, the ultimate professional composer, needed inspiration untrammeled by lucre to churn out his masterpieces strikes me as...well...silly.

BTW the trombone music performed at Beethoven's funeral was two of the Three Equales for Four Trombones, WoO 30, from 1812. They were performed on trombones followed by vocal arrangements.