[EdwardBast]

Symphony 64 in A is amazing! The Largo, the finale! Like an answer to CPE Bach's D Major. A new favorite for me.

 

[JosefinaHW]

Symphony 64 in A is amazing! The Largo, the finale! Like an answer to CPE Bach's D Major. A new favorite for me.

I saw your post in the "What's New" stream. I don't know what is going on here, but it is wonderful to see you so happy and enthused!!!

 

[Funny]

I wasn't impressed by Fischer's performance of #70. Maybe the "triple fugue in double counterpoint" is a clever technical production, but can it be performed so that it actually sounds good to the average Classical Music listener?

Great that you found Hogwood's to deliver the goods for you, and hope that takes 70 off your list of those not worth listening to. I appreciated the passion and force of ArsMusica's defense of #70. But it does play into your thing, Mal, of maybe only people listening on some rarified music theory/history level can enjoy these, and I want to add one more thing to counter that.

I do enjoy the finale and am not downplaying what ArsMusica said about it but #70 also has a fun little moment of musical comedy in its first movement. If you'll indulge me, listen to the gag at 4:17 here:

Near the beginning of the Concerto for Horn and Hardart, the orchestra winds up seemingly out of sync (though of course it's been written to sound that way) and the conductor has to get them back on track by shouting "1, 2, 3, 4!" - a classic Schickele gag. Now if you'll check the passage starting at 0:43 here

(and yes, this performance is a little slow but that may allow more perceptive time to appreciate this) Haydn - obviously more subtly but still audibly - does a very similar thing where the different string voices start off in a pretty straightforward, easily-grasped back-and-forth pattern but quickly start monkeying around with it, getting "out of sync," to the point where we, the listeners, have almost totally lost our sense of where the downbeat is supposed to be. Right at that point, wind blasts come in on those downbeats, loudly marking off ("shouting") 1, 2, 3, 4! to reestablish the beat.

It's just one little funny moment, but it requires no extra background or education or below-the-surface understanding, it's something that comes across, that can be felt, directly through listening, and that's what many of Haydn's greatest moments do. (This doesn't rank all that high in my list of his greatest moments, and you know damn well that I do indeed keep such a ranked list, but it is in #70, a piece under discussion.) So I once again want to take this opportunity to appeal to anyone who finds any Haydn work "boring" to Just Listen, and then Listen Again!

 

[Mal]

I don't have any Joseph materials. I do have Michael's 20 Symphonies by the Slovak Chamber Orchestra. How does Michael compare to Joseph?

Michael is generally regarded as very minor compared to Joseph. Why not try some Joseph, I recommend starting with Davis in the London symphonies:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-London-Symphonies-Vol-1-Joseph/dp/B0000041AQ

 

[Mal]

I saw your post in the "What's New" stream. I don't know what is going on here, but it is wonderful to see you so happy and enthused!!!

I'm not sure Edward is all that "happy and enthused", he may just be dismayed with me and Mr ClassicFM not liking #64! As I quite liked Hogwood's #70 I though'd give his #64 a try:

Nope, not liking his treatment of the slow movement of #64 any more than Fischer's! And that minuet really drags.

Hurwitz doesn't like Hogwood at all, even, or especially not his, #70:

"the performances themselves stand as the dullest available. Hogwood's approach to this music lacks any vestige of emotional involvement. He's completely mechanical. Slow movements, with their vibrato-less strings and thin tone sound completely soulless, while the quicker ones move with a choppy, routine vigor. As an example, compare the brilliant triple-fugue finale of Symphony No. 70 to a couple of past versions. David Blum with the pick-up Esterhazy Orchestra on Vanguard offers a swifter basic tempo with more vivid dynamic contrasts and far richer instrumental color. Dorati's classic version (on Decca) has more weight, and while heavier, really brings out the minor-key mystery and threat latent in the movement's quieter passages. Both versions not only characterize the music infinitely more strongly than does Hogwood, they reveal more inner detail and tension, and order the movement in big, sweeping paragraphs rather than in short, clipped phrases."

Oh well, at least he has vigor, unlike Fischer in #70.

Anyway, here's Dorati in #64, I'm really liking that largo! And that final movement... Now I'm enthused.

Can anyone recommend others in #64 or #70? Drahos on Naxos? Fey? Blum?

 

[CnC Bartok]

Tempora mutantur (No.64) has had more than a couple of mentions here, I think. If so, I'm hardly surprised! It's a great piece, I find it oddly intimate.

I'm not a fan of Hogwood in this one, a bit abrasive, matter-of-fact, and frankly cold. Tafelmusik under Bruno Weil is wonderful, though. Drahos is also very good. Dorati? Well obviously!!! I also think Fischer is in his element here. Lots of great choices.

It's got a nickname, so it must be good! :devil:

 

[Haydn70]

Symphony 60 was mentioned in a few posts but I thought I would discuss it a bit more in depth.

It is in six movements and contains some very striking and some very beautiful music. Most (all?) of the music was first used by Haydn as incidental music for a play by Jean Francois Regnard entitled Le Distrait. The overture and entr'acte music was so popular he put them together to form this symphony, known as Il distratto.

Haydn expert H.C. Robbins Landon wrote that Haydn "takes special pains to create an uproariously mad tonal picture".

This from the Wikipedia article about the symphony:

"The conductor Kenneth Woods describes it as "the funniest and most modern work" on his list of top twenty C-major symphonies, and "possibly the funniest and most modern symphony ever written", going on to say that "Haydn uses most of the 20th-century 'isms' in this piece-surrealism, absurdism, modernism, poly-stylism, and hops effortlessly between tightly integrated symphonic argument and rapid-fire cinematic jump-cutting. This is Haydn at his absolute boldest-he undermines every expectation, and re-examines every possible assumption about music."

I can't say I agree with everything Wood says but I definitely appreciate his great appreciation for the work...and I definitely agree with the that last sentence. It is a great symphony.

 

[Muse Wanderer]

...............................

 

[Muse Wanderer]

Over the past 5 years I have been on a mission to listen to all of Haydn's symphonies. It took time to really digest Haydn's music as he does not get hold of you like Mozart with his emotional perfection or Beethoven's contrasts and surprises. Haydn's pieces tend to quickly turn into background music if one does not give his full attention to it. That said Haydn is a brilliant jolly composer, full of humour with lots of twists and turns in his music that puts a smile on my face.

I was already familiar with Davies' set from 92 till 104 with favourites being 94 'Surprise', 101 'The Clock' and 104 'London'. I have Dorati's set as a benchmark for repeated listens with Pinnock, Colin Davies, Russell Davies, Goodman and Fischer as added listening.

When I started from his 1st ten symphonies I was struck by his use of counterpoint earlier on in his career with symphony no 3. I posted my impressions in the 'What is it about Haydn thread' back then. His 6th 'Le matin' impressed me. 'Lamentatione' (26nd) showed some darkness (finally). His Sturm and Drang phase (40s symphonies) was awesome! His 39th, 45th 'Farewell', 44th 'Trauer' and 49th 'La Passione' were dark and at times furious.

His 60s symphonies were all a treat to listen to and truly remarkable. The 64th symphony 'Tempora Mutandur' stood out as a wonderful example of this period. As soon as I reached his 80s, it started to really rock with great pieces like the 82nd 'The Bear', 83rd 'The Hen' and 85th 'Le Reine'.

Finally this week I went through his last few symphonies to finish off once and for all the whole Dorati set and here I stumble on his perfect masterpiece. The only piece that is great from start to finish (even the minuet!!)... symphony number 88!! This is my absolute favourite...

 

[EdwardBast]

Not long ago I listened to the whole cycle again and I have new favorites. In addition to the ones cited earlier in this thread (late ones and those in the 40s) I specially noted 23, 56, 60, 63, 64, 66, 67 and 71.

 

[Moosh88]

My must listen to new listeners

After listening to all the symphonies, my top 10 are,

1. 88
2. 44
3. 49
4. 31
5. 90
6. 6
7. 101
8. 98
9. 45
10. 60

 

[hammeredklavier]

The 44th, 80th (especially the slow movement), 102nd. The one I found most memorable in the middle range of the symphonies is the 56th, with an extended slow movement somewhat reminiscent of the solemness of the 49th and the elegance of the C major cello concerto, which I think are just as decent.

 

[Chilham]

For me:

104
94
101
100, 102, 103
82, 85, 86
45, 83, 84, 87, 99
44, 93, 97, 98
49, 88, 96
6, 48, 92
39
2, 7, 8, 22, 26, 47, 60
11, 28, 31, 41, 43, 52, 53, 56, 57, 62, 64, 73, 78, 80, 81, 89, 90, 91
All the rest


When I listen to Giovanni Antonini and Giardino Armonico, the symphony always jumps a little in my estimation.

 

[Luchesi]

For me:

104
94
101
100, 102, 103
82, 85, 86
45, 83, 84, 87, 99
44, 93, 97, 98
49, 88, 96
6, 48, 92
39
2, 7, 8, 22, 26, 47, 60
11, 28, 31, 41, 43, 52, 53, 56, 57, 62, 64, 73, 78, 80, 81, 89, 90, 91
All the rest

When I listen to Giovanni Antonini and Giardino Armonico, the symphony always jumps a little in my estimation.

Wow. I imagine how much time was involved in listening, re-listening and then deciding (over years) about that list. What other life activity is similiar to this pursuit.. I did this with pop songs when I was young. It helps immeasurably with appreciation. You could look back at the list 10 or 20 years later -- and we never know exactly what the whys were, at the time.

The later works are higher. That's good that Haydn was succeeding in his personal creativity, against all the outside pushes and pulls around him.

 

[FrankinUsa]

I love FJ Haydn. Haydn is the composer that I most often go to late at night and the last music of the day. There is a sense of “completeness.” I have the complete set by Adam Fischer and I occasionally go from One until the end. Generally speaking,the Paris Symphonies onwards are considered the apex of Haydn. I don’t think it is appreciated to compare Haydn to Mozart. Yes,it is the “classical” period but two different sensibilities.

Ummm,,,I have come across one person here who seems to be on a crusade to denigrate FJ Haydn. His cause is beyond comprehension.

 

[Chilham]

Wow. I imagine how much time was involved in listening...

April 2021. Just Haydn. I enjoyed it.

It helps that many are quite short.

 

[HerbertNorman]

April 2021. Just Haydn. I enjoyed it.

It helps that many are quite short.

Now that's an idea!

 

[Kreisler jr]

1st tier: 82, 86, 88, 90, 92-95, 97-99, 101-104
2nd tier: 31, 42, 44-52, 54, 56, 57, 60, 69, 70, 73-78, 80, 81, 83-85, 87, 89, 91, 96, 100, 105 (sinfonia concertante)
3rd tier: 6-8, 13, 21, 22, 26, 30, 34, 39, 41, 43, 53, 55, 58, 59, 63, 71, 79
4th tier rest

I have heard all the works multiple times but the great listening project was around the anniversary 2009 and I don't know/remember all of them well.
61,62,64-68 are very probably better than 4th tier but I don't remember enough about them, only that none became particularly noteworthy for me. There are also some among the first 40 I might rate higher if I re-listened to them. And I would differentiate a bit finer, especially in the "2nd tier".

Three without nicknames or included in the more famous sets/groupings that belong with the best are 70,80,90. I also consider the other "pre-Paris" symphonies 74-79 and 81 underrated.

 

[hammeredklavier]

There is a minor dissenting consensus favoring the Sturm und Drang works, or at least acknowledging them as another high point.

Btw, I think the difference between the "sturm und drang" ones and the "regular" ones are exaggerated in some quarters. A 'turbulent' work isn't 'turbulent' all the way; a 'mild-sounding' work isn't 'mild-sounding' all the way throughout.

 

[60476]

Would you recommend to buy a complete set or a set with the named ones? I only have The Paris and London Symphonies at the moment by Bernstein. I am trying to figure out my next step with Haydn Symphonies.

Complete set by Fischer or Dorati?

The Haydn Channel and Symphony Channel from my classical net radio play a lot of Haydn symphonies from the Dorati cycle and I always seem to like what I hear.