How can I make sense of all of these arbitrary voice-leading rules?

ahhh, but it's solid professional hogwash that's actually true. I'd like to know your direct experience of all this but I suspect that you don't have any apart from, what was it, a year analysing a Beethoven sonata or similar that put you off CP? I admire your chutzpah, but if you haven't taken a route through compositional academia (with the aim of entering the profession) and come out at the other end better for it as a composer and then continued with advanced studies, all the while finding out about your musical self and developing because of the study and practice, how do you even think for one minute you can call any of it hogwash? You don't know, I do because I did it. We can disagree about sooo much more and have sooo much fun, but in this regard, you are wrong.

Being confrontational is one thing, but from a base containing some ignorance doesn't seem like a smart move to me.

millionrainbows said:

Excellent exposition, and reveals the true intent of this thread and the OP's "innocent" post.

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He's agreeing with the intent behind my initial question, so your comment makes no sense. Also, I've ignored all of your passive aggressive pot shots this entire time, but this is just getting out of hand. If you have an issue with me or my intentions, then stop gossiping like a teenage girl and state your accusation clearly and without innuendo.

Woodduck said:

In the long quotation you offer in post #35 above, you put in bold only what supports your statements in this post. What follows in that quotation contradicts your statements. You should have bolded this:

"Perhaps a better description [of Debussy's harmony] would be 'less functional': for all its rejection of routine procedure, Debussy's music is awash with tonality and achieves its expressiveness as much from changing the emphasis of the existing idiom as from introducing elements entirely foreign to it. His music is a naturally evolved inflection of the musical language he inherited - a continuation rather than a rupture."

You claim that "his music was created out of those harmonic perceptions, not by assimilation of the past or using the past as a springboard. His music was based on 'the now' and the perception of sound as it is," and "the CP rules meant nothing to him, especially rules of resolution and voice-leading procedures. He only retained from tonality a basic language of triads and scales..." These statements are inaccurate and misleading. Debussy most certainly did "assimilate the past" and use it as a "springboard." The "perception of sound as it is" was not a sufficient foundation for Pelleas et Melisande, which is less a product of "the now" than of the thorough absorption of Tristan and Parsifal.

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Ok, he was influenced by Wagner, but I think to emphasize that aspect of Debussy is also misleading, because it doesn't recognize or appreciate the radical nature of Debussy's music.

I think the greatest part of Debussy's achievement is that he cut through the bull---t. To think otherwise is to be in that opposing camp of "traditionalists" and academics.

level82rat said:

He's agreeing with the intent behind my initial question, so your comment makes no sense. Also, I've ignored all of your passive aggressive pot shots this entire time, but this is just getting out of hand. If you have an issue with me or my intentions, then stop gossiping like a teenage girl and state your accusation clearly and without innuendo.

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It wouldn't surprise me if you and EdwardBast were in contact outside of this forum, planning out these little "traps."

mikeh375 said:

ahhh, but it's solid professional hogwash that's actually true. I'd like to know your direct experience of all this but I suspect that you don't have any apart from, what was it, a year analysing a Beethoven sonata or similar that put you off CP?

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You've got a good memory, so something I've said must have impressed you somewhere along the line.

I admire your chutzpah, but if you haven't taken a route through compositional academia (with the aim of entering the profession) and come out at the other end better for it as a composer and then continued with advanced studies, all the while finding out about your musical self and developing because of the study and practice, how do you even think for one minute you can call any of it hogwash?

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When music theory teachers who can't play refuse to acknowledge the connection between diminished seventh chords and flat-nine chords, as in late Beethoven's Quartet in F, then it's time for me to start calling myself a "jazzer," and split that scene. Daddy-o.

You don't know, I do because I did it. We can disagree about sooo much more and have sooo much fun, but in this regard, you are wrong. Being confrontational is one thing, but from a base containing some ignorance doesn't seem like a smart move to me.

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I recognize and respect your credentials, my friend, but your life is not my life.

millionrainbows said:

It wouldn't surprise me if you and EdwardBast were in contact outside of this forum, planning out these little "traps."

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I will leave that as an accusation for EdwardBlast to defend since you still did not respond to my first request. Explain, specifically and without ambiguity, what exactly I am guilty of and (if possible) to what purpose I committed this wrong. I will maintain my cordiality and cease insults with the hope that you will respect me enough to answer my question.

millionrainbows said:

When music theory teachers who can't play refuse to acknowledge the connection between diminished seventh chords and flat-nine chords, as in late Beethoven's Quartet in F, then it's time for me to start calling myself a "jazzer," and split that scene. Daddy-o.

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LOL, I'm with you there all right. Dim7ths, flattened 9ths....It's all in the bass note and the spelling and voice leading.

millionrainbows said:

I recognize and respect your credentials, my friend, but your life is not my life.

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No it's not and I hope yours is good. Your life and my life has no bearing on the fact that CP learning can be of great benefit during formative years and beyond. What the student must do is master the principles and apply them laterally, subjectively and with a spirit of adventure if they want to glean any further insight about themselves and the stuff of music from them. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be instilled or recognised too often which is a shame because CP is a great grounding from which to develop one's own methodology. Modernism can be achieved via CP with the right mindset prepared to push boundaries with open, receptive ears, but of course modernism can also be achieved (and probably more effectively), via a different route that ignores CP altogether. Whatever, it's all good, each to their own way - it's all valid.

millionrainbows said:

It wouldn't surprise me if you and EdwardBast were in contact outside of this forum, planning out these little "traps."

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Yeah, must be a conspiracy. Once again, you have exceeded the word count of every other contributor without adding one bit of pertinent information to the thread. Level82rat and mike 375 have drawn the obvious conclusions about this incessantly recurring behavior without any input from me.

EdwardBast said:

Yeah, must be a conspiracy. Once again, you have exceeded the word count of every other contributor without adding one bit of pertinent information to the thread. Level82rat and mike 375 have drawn the obvious conclusions about this incessantly recurring behavior without any input from me.

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You have a nice day, too, Ed.

Reduce it as far as possible - but not further.