[Eclectic Al]

I am now completely lost. I don't understand how this has anything to do with bringing classical music to the average Joe, or whether that would or would not be a desirable aim.
I guess slaves in Spain, or presumably Al Andalus at the time, under Moorish control, may have provided an influence. I guess also that elsewhere other influences based in the Church existed, and I guess untold singers in lands influenced by Viking, Saxon, Celtic, Slavic, Orthodox cultures, etc, etc also made music, and chipped in. I expect people exploited others everywhere you could look and both the exploited and the exploiters incorporated musical influences. My suspicion is that perhaps Europe was a real melting pot, and it is the collision which created an exceptional musical inheritance, not some strange idea that slave girls are what mattered. The point is that this all blended into a tradition, and it is that tradition which gives ongoing pleasure.
Or perhaps it was the aliens of Mong.

 

[BachIsBest]

Edit: Not a productive addition to the discussion.

 

[Luchesi]

Enthusiast.

You make a very good point about the importance of music in one's life. In my circle of friends there are two of us where music is a vital part of our everyday lives. I have other friends who like it well enough but it remains a peripheral thing, background music for evenings at home. They would never collect on the basis that I do and they wouldn't know Bob Dylan from Bob the Builder. I've tried introducing things I like to people but it is usually met with total indifference.

Although music is a huge thing culturally in the world in general only a limited number of people are real enthusiasts and they tend to actually play or have dabbled at playing at some point in their lives.

I can play a few instruments with some ability but I knew early on that unless I invested much more time than I was prepared to I would never reach the peak that my musical heroes rested on. I played in show bands, jazz groups, rock bands and they were good but were never destined for greatness and that was fine. Now I get my musical pleasure from discovering new artists, new music and new genres and rediscovering things that I had overlooked in the past.
.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make, if indeed that's what I'm doing, is that the love of music such as we enthusiasts who frequent a music forum have, is at the end of the day, a kind of minority interest and the idea of encouraging people to appreciate our loves is anathema to me. If you have the inclination and inner feeling for it you will discover the joy of music for yourself. It shouldn't need forcing.

Sorry for the ramble but there you have it!

In what ways were you lucky enough to get into music? Can you remember?

 

[Eclectic Al]

Earlier in this thread my post about the Colloquy about this very history, reported by the American Musicological Society, was lampooned as nothing more than postmodern revisionism.

Sad, really.

Well I didn't lampoon it. But then it was pretty much beyond parody. :lol:

 

[Luchesi]

To hell with the average Joe, let's get specific here. I have three children (2 teenagers, 1 not quite) with basically no interest in classical music.

(a) what is wrong with them?
(b) what parental shortcomings have led to this situation?
(c) how do I make them like classical music?
(d) in what way will this make them better people?

If we look at the childhood of Mozart (or JsB or Beethoven). There's clues and hints therein.

 

[arpeggio]

European concert music was really never that big with the masses. I have read in several sources that most of the people who lived in rural Germany/Austria had never heard of Beethoven.

I could not find it, maybe some here can, but several years ago a member had an excellent post on the influence on Edison and the record player had on musical culture. Prior to Edison most popular musicians were musically illiterate. With a recording they could create an account of their music without knowing the difference between a half note and a half rest. This allowed what we called call popular music to catch up and surpass classical.

 

[Bulldog]

I think we are trying to find solutions to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[DaveM]

European concert music had a very real presence in the cities of Mozart and Beethoven's time. It's doubtful that classical music, no matter whether during the time of Beethoven or later, had a big impact on, or presence in, rural populations which usually meant low populations and less access to concert, salon and other venues.

 

[Barbebleu]

In what ways were you lucky enough to get into music? Can you remember?

Very good question. If memory serves, and we are talking about 60 years ago, I was at scout camp and one of the older scouts had a transistor radio that he used to play at night tuned into Radio Luxembourg. This was a continental station that played pop music and in the late fifties there was precious little of that on British radio. Songs that caught my attention were the Everly Brothers Temptation, Adam Faith's What Do You Want which I did a rendition of at a scout jamboree! Del Shannon's Runaway too.

I was hooked and spent the rest of the two weeks listening to this station whenever I could. I remember hearing bands like The Crystals, The Ronettes, Martha and the Vandellas et al. Loved every minute. I had friends who were heavily into Elvis and soon, so was I. Then along came The Beatles, Stones, Kinks, Gerry and the Pacemakers, etc. etc.

When I was about fifteen I heard Dave Brubeck and the MJQ on the radio for the first time and that sent me down the jazz rabbit hole. When I was 24 I heard Tannhäuser on Radio Three and that was me hooked on opera. I had been listening to the great classical guitarists like John Williams and Julian Bream for about a year previously so I was into classical a little.

Gradually I sampled more and more and now in my early seventies I like to think I'm still finding new stuff to listen to, people like Blake Mills, Molly Tuttle, Emily Barker and a host of other great musicians. I can't imagine my inquisitiveness in this respect will ever stop. My only blind spot musically is Baroque, I just get nothing from the likes of Handel, Lully, Rameau etc. My bad I know but not to worry!

 

[Flamme]

 

[hammeredklavier]

Sad, really.

It's funny how you "divert" every one of these discussions into "classical music vs. non-classical music" in such a way to prove the value of non-classical music.

 

[hammeredklavier]

But it's worth noting that most classical music fans don't care about early music either - for them, classical music begins with Bach. So by the time the complex, sophisticated, better (as far as they're concerned) stuff comes along, the African or Arabic influence isn't relevant.

Yeah, even in those non-Western countries, their own "traditional music" isn't popular, but Western-influenced pop (which uses Western triadic harmony) is. A good example would be K-pop.

 

[Luchesi]

Very good question. If memory serves, and we are talking about 60 years ago, I was at scout camp and one of the older scouts had a transistor radio that he used to play at night tuned into Radio Luxembourg. This was a continental station that played pop music and in the late fifties there was precious little of that on British radio. Songs that caught my attention were the Everly Brothers Temptation, Adam Faith's What Do You Want which I did a rendition of at a scout jamboree! Del Shannon's Runaway too.

I was hooked and spent the rest of the two weeks listening to this station whenever I could. I remember hearing bands like The Crystals, The Ronettes, Martha and the Vandellas et al. Loved every minute. I had friends who were heavily into Elvis and soon, so was I. Then along came The Beatles, Stones, Kinks, Gerry and the Pacemakers, etc. etc.

When I was about fifteen I heard Dave Brubeck and the MJQ on the radio for the first time and that sent me down the jazz rabbit hole. When I was 24 I heard Tannhäuser on Radio Three and that was me hooked on opera. I had been listening to the great classical guitarists like John Williams and Julian Bream for about a year previously so I was into classical a little.

Gradually I sampled more and more and now in my early seventies I like to think I'm still finding new stuff to listen to, people like Blake Mills, Molly Tuttle, Emily Barker and a host of other great musicians. I can't imagine my inquisitiveness in this respect will ever stop. My only blind spot musically is Baroque, I just get nothing from the likes of Handel, Lully, Rameau etc. My bad I know but not to worry!

I remember when I first heard the big hits of Motown I tried to figure out on our piano what they were doing in their arrangements. I couldn't. It was too difficult for me to hear with all the different instruments involved. I thought that, perhaps this was what was happening in symphonies. I rode that philosophical high for a year or so. I didn't try to listen to symphonies, these songs were like tiny symphonies for me. And some day I would learn to deconstruct them. What did I know?

 

[Luchesi]

In the last few years, maybe since 2000, a generation of musicologists are beginning to look critically at how the history of music has been told with an eye to giving proper credit to the forgotten artists, mostly the outsiders. But not without some controversy. Old and treasured narratives about our culture are not corrected without a backlash from vested agents of the mainstream.

Earlier in this thread my post about the Colloquy about this very history, reported by the American Musicological Society, was lampooned as nothing more than postmodern revisionism.

Sad, really.

I'd like to see a list of your greatest works from many categories of music to compare them to the greatest CM works. I just don't understand you. I think it would be quite predictable.

 

[Josquin13]

Getting back to what matters. Melody, harmony, and rhythm are exclusive to what form of music, or race of people? And what elitist ethnic race of people invented singing?

Stop making music about racism. That is a biased agenda that has nothing to do with the joy of making and creating music (which clearly transcends race). Music comes from the heart, or it isn't music--Herbie Hancock. Music is love--Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. We all have a heart (well, most of us do), and we all love, & we all have the impulse to make music, especially as children. So, why can't we just leave it at that?

During my elementary school years, in America, at a public school (the opposite of what it means in Britain), I was taught the viola, by my choice!, in the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th grades, before I switched over to the trumpet--which was my father's choice (because he liked Jazz)--in the 5th, 6th, and later 7th and 8th grades (before a bully that sold drugs stole my trumpet). I also sang regularly in music class. I recall that I would hum tunes to myself, quietly, on the school bus home from school everyday. I also sang in church every Sunday.

& I feel so sorry and badly for children today that don't get what I had. It should be every child's right to have music in their lives, in some way, and it should start in elementary school (and also at home). But today, the funds that were once used to go into providing music education for children are too often instead channeled into sports (& especially at the middle & high school levels--where it can potentially damage the rest of the school budget).

During my elementary school years, the sports that I played had nothing to do with my school, they all happened outside of school, that is, in addition to school, and they weren't overly expensive (other than a small portion of the equipment), as my parents could afford it. While at elementary school we had the most fantastically fun recesses!, where we all played kick ball and bombardment and climbed on a jungle gym and parallel bars every day. Not expensive stuff, budget wise (and btw, looking back, there wasn't a single overweight kid in my entire school). So, the school budget allowed for music and daily French lessons, too. Again, that was at a public school in America in the 1960s & 70s. Incredible, right?

Here's one of my heroes, and the kind of person that I wish could be in elementary schools everywhere:

Again, does it really matter what form or type of music Sonya Knussen is teaching her kids in Baltimore? No, it doesn't. She's teaching music, and her kids can go into any form or type of music they please later on in their lives, if they're so inclined, BECAUSE she's teaching them the rudiments and fundamentals of music (all music) and she's doing it very well. Yes, she's teaching them what she knows & probably what she was herself once taught (back in Britain). But what a gift!!!! to those lucky children. That's what is important, and that's all that is important. So, let's start there, and the rest will take care of itself.

For example,

ETC.

By the way, her father was a wonderful musician, too:

"Sonya's Lullaby":

Symphony No. 3:

 

[SanAntone]

I'd like to see a list of your greatest works from many categories of music to compare them to the greatest CM works.

Greatness is not something I concern myself with, and don't rate works other than if they interest me or move my heart and excite my mind. Also, I don't compare music from one genre to another: the styles, the priorities, the compositional questions and problems, are all very different, leaving no basis for a meaningful comparison.

I also don't see music like some sort of horse race, with works or genres competing with one another, with winners and loser,s or a zero sum game. For me most music has something positive to offer, and depending upon my mood, offer a very enjoyable listening experience.

It is obvious you don't understand me, I find it unfortunate that there is such a gap of understanding - but I have come to the conclusion that I approach music differently from many TC members.

But, I can live with that.

 

[hammeredklavier]

Greatness is not something I concern myself with, and don't rate works other than if they interest me or move my heart and excite my mind.

Keep in mind, we aren't talking about "greatness" in this thread. Music doesn't need to be "great" to be enjoyed by many. The question is 'how to get many people to enjoy classical music'.

 

[SanAntone]

Keep in mind, we aren't talking about "greatness" in this thread. Music doesn't need to be "great" to be enjoyed by many. The question is 'how to get many people to enjoy classical music'.

I was asked for my list of the greatest works, which is why I responded about greatness.

But IMO the question is Why should we get many people to enjoy classical music? Can't Classical Music fend for itself? Why does it need advocates to try to get people to enjoy it?

 

[DaveM]

...If you are really concerned with advocating for Classical music, you would be well served to drop the genre-supremacy argument. In my experience, starting with myself, but reflected with many of my friends and colleagues, the biggest turn-off to Classical Music are its greatest fans. Their condescending attitude toward other genres of music, is received by other more open minded music lovers as an indication that the person pushing the Classical Music supremacy line is dismissed regarding their opinions about music in general.

Another round of warm fuzzies for, well I guess just about all of us. Over the many decades I have spent close to various classical communities, I have never experienced an elitist, 'our music is better than anyone else's' attitude. The overriding feeling has been a common wonderment at how magnificent classical music is and how lucky we are to have experienced and to still be experiencing it.

Rather than all of us having been cloistered in nothing other than CM, many of us, including myself have enjoyed a lot of other music genres and have felt that we would have missed something rewarding without having had that experience also.

 

[Flamme]

https://www.classicfm.com/composers/mozart/orchestra-thanks-construction-workers-turkey/