[BachIsBest]

I don't have your concerns about the composers I mentioned, or others on those podcasts like John Adams, Eric Whitacre, John Williams, Ennio Morricone or Einaudi. One thing is that they all trained as classical composers.

I think that many young people aren't nearly as sectarian or self conscious about music as previous generations where. Basically, the categories we might argue about here matter little to them.



They obviously do listen to those, among other things. I don't see that as a negative but as a positive, since its obviously being harnessed by the classical industry to generate income.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, but when people here talk about the decline in classical music, my impression is they just aren't talking about a decline in listeners of someone like Einaudi. This is the disconnect I see with the BBC article.

 

[Luchesi]

As a firm believer in early imprinting in the arts, I would recommend a hodge-podge of different approaches to introducing CM and the young to each other. Not in any order: exposing them to film/video soundtracks and suggesting that CM is or can be a place or way to further explore the sort of soundtrack music they really like. I loved as a kid the Richard Rodgers music for Victory at Sea--very stirring, and I wanted to hear more of such.

Pointing out that music they may hear in ads or as intro music for TV shows, etc., with examples, may be taken from CM--an example is the intro to Judge Judy episodes where we hear the opening 4 notes of Beethoven's 5th.

Playing for kids in the classroom bits of tone poems or ballet scores and asking them whether they hear in the music a thunderstorm (Beethoven, Grofe) and who did the more convincing job. Nightride and Sunrise suggests itself; also Villa-Lobos BB #2, more Grofe (On the Trail); which Rachmaninoff preludes and Etudes Tableaux sound the most like bells ringing. Hard to go wrong with The Nutcracker or Peter and the Wolf. Respighi offers many examples. It will take with those predisposed for whatever reasons to begin to like CM.

Imagine how boring (irrelevant) or off-putting that would be to a typical 10 or 12 year old boy. We're the adults, we need to trick them! We know a little about what makes them tick. We might remember our own reactions at that tender age. Liking the simple yet poignant song Nowhere Man, Lennon, much more than any LvB symphony. (But what did we know..)

 

[Strange Magic]

Imagine how boring (irrelevant) or off-putting that would be to a typical 10 or 12 year old boy. We're the adults, we need to trick them! We know a little about what makes them tick. We might remember our own reactions at that tender age. Liking the simple yet poignant song Nowhere Man, Lennon, much more than any LvB symphony. (But what did we know..)

I was that 12 year old. The march from Love for Three Oranges was the theme music for a radio crime/detective series I heard on the radio. We know about the Lone Ranger and the William Tell Overture--it's now a legend among those old enough to remember. I recall my mother putting on the 78 of the Polovtsian Dances and the LP of Ravel's Daphnis, Suite #2. As you suggest, I am vividly remembering my own reactions at that tender age and much before. Powerful imprinting.

Were you raised in a musical household? I wonder.

 

[EvaBaron]

I think the best you can do is expose young kids to classical pieces that are short and easy to listen to (for example beautiful or catchy melodies). If 95% of adults don’t have the patience for cm an eight year old definitely won’t have it either for a symphony

 

[Luchesi]

I think the best you can do is expose young kids to classical pieces that are short and easy to listen to (for example beautiful or catchy melodies). If 95% of adults don’t have the patience for cm an eight year old definitely won’t have it either for a symphony

Or tell the kids they're just not old enough. That motivates.

 

[Sid James]

True.

For a few semesters I taught after school chorus classes an a local elementary school administered by the local Park District. Parents had to pony up a registration fee to the Parks, just as they would have to for a class in painting, folk dance, or other things.

It went well for a while but the parents were actually way more meddling than I would have expected, so I quit.

That's a bit of a shame, but you can do nothing more than try your best.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, but when people here talk about the decline in classical music, my impression is they just aren't talking about a decline in listeners of someone like Einaudi. This is the disconnect I see with the BBC article.

Put it this way, there's been talk of a decline for ages, but classical music has never gotten to the stage of entirely sinking. I don't see a major cause for concern in terms of the number of people listening to it. The concert format is changing, and I see it more as adapting to new areas of demand and not as a decline. The old format that we've had since the 19th century is still continuing. I think the real problem is with equity, in terms of socio-economic disparities involving access to music in the education system (as part of general education).

 

[Dimboukas]

Ban Regietheater and allow alcohol drinking during.

 

[ORigel]

That's a bit of a shame, but you can do nothing more than try your best.



Put it this way, there's been talk of a decline for ages, but classical music has never gotten to the stage of entirely sinking. I don't see a major cause for concern in terms of the number of people listening to it. The concert format is changing, and I see it more as adapting to new areas of demand and not as a decline. The old format that we've had since the 19th century is still continuing. I think the real problem is with equity, in terms of socio-economic disparities involving access to music in the education system (as part of general education).

David Hurwitz did a recent video on this. He thinks:
--CM has a very small audience of mostly older people. The CM industry should pander to older people
--The absolute number of CM listeners is slowly growing due to population growth
--Governments will subsidize CM, but the CM musicians will never be satisfied (Hurwitz claims they're basically entitled brats)
--The industry will adapt to new times as it as in the past, more or less. In the late 90s, he relates, the CM industry was creating portal sites to major orchestras that were so unwieldy they kept crashing. Now major orchestras do their streaming on their own sites, and have audiences. He says this will endanger smaller orchestras, because why go to concerts when you can stream the best orchestras in the world? But that doesn't really matter, Hurwitz says.

 

[Sid James]

I can understand what Hurwitz is saying and the reasons for the conclusions he's making, but what do you think about it?

 

[ORigel]

I can understand what Hurwitz is saying and the reasons for the conclusions he's making, but what do you think about it?

As long as a lot of the reference recordings are still readily availiable in the future, I'm fine with the vision Hurwitz describes. If it turns out to be true. I really hope middle aged and seniors can get into CM in large enough numbers that the CM recording industry doesn't collapse.

 

[fbjim]

Ban Regietheater and allow alcohol drinking during.

Counter-proposal: allow regietheater but have it done in front of drunken patrons.

 

[Bkeske]

After reading though much of this, my take…

To be honest, I really don’t see this as being very different than what it was in the past.

At 64, I grew up in the 60’s-early 70’s in terms of my ‘youth’. My father was an Architect, I was was a young budding visual artist, sent to various private classes in my youth. My sister learned/was taught and performed ballet, which I was fascinated by, and probably my biggest introduction to classical music.

None of my family members were musicians, or took any instrument/musical training. There were no ‘pure’ classical LP’s in our home, the closest being Peter and The Wolf, which I was fascinated by and played a lot as a young child. In general, my interest in music was much the same as others; it was simply in the home first and foremost. But music wasn’t ‘pushed’ on us in any way, it just attracted me.

In terms of ‘the arts’, and in comparison to my other friends, classmates, and associates, I was an ‘outlier’. They knew nothing of architecture, going to an art museum, studying the visual arts, or attending ballet practices or performances. I’m not sure it was any more popular then as it is now for the vast majority. There is little doubt that my ultimate interest in ‘classical’ music has a lot to do with my artistic upbringing. But my family didn’t go to the symphony growing up, only to my sisters ballet performances where the music was recorded. The closest to live classical music I was exposed to was the organ and choir in our Lutheran church. Which I did enjoy as a kid. But that still did not make me interested in having or listening to classical LP’s at the time.

The idea of ‘changing’ something to make classical music more interesting to young people just seems an exercise in futility. I don’t think it is something you can force another to like. I don’t think there is small handful of reasons people become classical music fans. It happens for a variety of reasons that cannot be ‘put into a box’. What it comes down to, IMO, is the general artistic interest of the individual child. That is what we should fear losing the development of, but that is either ‘inside of us’, or not. Although I was raised in an ‘artistic’ family, not all the siblings became artists, and none of us musicians. I’m the only classical music fan of them all, or for that matter, serious fan of music period. Luckily there are enough of us individuals to keep it from dying off completely. And ‘popular’ classical music does not sound appealing to me in the least.

 

[Luchesi]

If we didn't have an educational background in math or physics as a youngster, would we be interested in higher math or physics when we became adults? I don't know. This has probably been studied in depth.. for math and science.

In this regard, I think CM is 'higher' music.

I guess my piano students could be called 'outliers'. Those labels are very important to kids, for what about 5 years? But to them it seems like a long time.

 

[Sid James]

As long as a lot of the reference recordings are still readily availiable in the future, I'm fine with the vision Hurwitz describes. If it turns out to be true. I really hope middle aged and seniors can get into CM in large enough numbers that the CM recording industry doesn't collapse.

I see. The conservative approach - keeping things as they are - is a pragmatic one, at least when applied to the USA. Hurwitz has talked about how the financial bubble started to burst in the '90's. With recessions in 2008 and now with Covid, its obvious that the way forward will continue to involve difficulty because of constant change (especially economic and technological). Radical change isn't advisable in these circumstances, but at the other extreme is the danger of complacency. Longer term, there has to be nourishment and renewal for continued growth.

 

[Luchesi]

I see. The conservative approach - keeping things as they are - is a pragmatic one, at least when applied to the USA. Hurwitz has talked about how the financial bubble started to burst in the '90's. With recessions in 2008 and now with Covid, its obvious that the way forward will continue to involve difficulty because of constant change (especially economic and technological). Radical change isn't advisable in these circumstances, but at the other extreme is the danger of complacency. Longer term, there has to be nourishment and renewal for continued growth.

I might be wrong, but I don't think young people will be interested in CM without a few years of the experience of making music.
We're investing less and less time and money in this foundation for them. Educators, parents and the kids themselves don't think it's an unfortunate situation. Someday we'll all have very capable virtual reality.

 

[ORigel]

I see. The conservative approach - keeping things as they are - is a pragmatic one, at least when applied to the USA. Hurwitz has talked about how the financial bubble started to burst in the '90's. With recessions in 2008 and now with Covid, its obvious that the way forward will continue to involve difficulty because of constant change (especially economic and technological). Radical change isn't advisable in these circumstances, but at the other extreme is the danger of complacency. Longer term, there has to be nourishment and renewal for continued growth.

I think our goal should be keeping the CM industry alive, as opposed to making it popular, since I firmly believe CM does not appeal to more than a minority of listeners (and I don't know of an efficient way to fix that).

 

[Red Terror]

There's no need to make CM anymore appealing to young people than it already is. The industry's focus must continue to be the audience that is already there—we are the ones buying the albums and paying for concerts, not "young people". The audience for CM has always been relatively small and this will continue to be the case.

 

[Sid James]

I might be wrong, but I don't think young people will be interested in CM without a few years of the experience of making music.
We're investing less and less time and money in this foundation for them. Educators, parents and the kids themselves don't think it's an unfortunate situation. Someday we'll all have very capable virtual reality.

There's definitely a general problem with equity, in terms of access to music education of some sort (even at the general level). Even though that's fairly easy to agree on, the solution isn't so easy.

I think our goal should be keeping the CM industry alive, as opposed to making it popular, since I firmly believe CM does not appeal to more than a minority of listeners (and I don't know of an efficient way to fix that).

Keeping things going is fine, but basically in terms of the most conservative approach, two main results are conceivable:
1. Things stay the same, but its more or less a situation of stagnation.
2. Things get worse as there's not enough people to replace an increasingly aged audience.

I think that it makes sense to take on a low risk approach in the USA, given the problems in the classical industry there which occurred over the past few decades. At the same time, a little risk can go a long way, if its managed properly. I think it makes sense to try and aim for something even slightly better in the future than more of the same or a worse result.

 

[pianozach]

Is there a radio station that plays a diverse range of genres? Pop, Classical, Country, New Age, Punk, Progressive, Renaissance, Disco, Baroque, American Songbook, soundtracks, New Wave, Romantic, Alternative, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s, choral, indigenous, Indian, Big Band, electronica, ballet, Bop, salsa, etc, etc, etc.

Why not?

 

[Bkeske]

Is there a radio station that plays a diverse range of genres? Pop, Classical, Country, New Age, Punk, Progressive, Renaissance, Disco, Baroque, American Songbook, soundtracks, New Wave, Romantic, Alternative, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s, choral, indigenous, Indian, Big Band, electronica, ballet, Bop, salsa, etc, etc, etc.

Why not?

Because we each have our own belief in aesthetics. A radio station would go broke trying to please everyone, or, have few to no listeners. All those various forms are out there, especially with the advent of online stations.

I listen to a pretty broad variety of music, but would say typically 80%+ is ’classical’ today, in all its variations. For me, the next most desirable genre is jazz and folk/folk rock. But I delve into many other genre as well.