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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Thread about pop vs classical music and comments remind me one thing. I often notice some kind of hypocrisy vibe, especially here on forum. Opinions, tastes, things are different but equal, no one is better. Music is subjective, pop is equal with classical, everything is art , no objective criteria of great music, etc.

But, somehow always, Bach, Mozart and Beethoven are best composers ever. It is more interesting how you can measure three best composers, or best works, but then equalizing clasical with pop where is gap so obvious. No problem to say that somebody is better than Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Bartok, Stravinsky, Wagner , Ravel, but somehow Madona, Michael Jackson, Drake, Rihanna are on same level with CM composers. "You know, its all different, but no one is better, but hey, Mozart is the greatest. God give him notes".
 

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Oh no, here it comes again.

It's subjective, but I don't see how it follows that I'm required to think in my subjective judgement that everything is equal.

But, somehow always, Bach, Mozart and Beethoven are best composers ever.
By the way, no, I think that Bach, Beethoven and Wagner are the greatest ever. But if someone wants to say Prokofiev, Satie and Antheil, to each his/her own.
 

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Thread about pop vs classical music and comments remind me one thing. I often notice some kind of hypocrisy vibe, especially here on forum. Opinions, tastes, things are different but equal, no one is better. Music is subjective, pop is equal with classical, everything is art , no objective criteria of great music, etc.

But, somehow always, Bach, Mozart and Beethoven are best composers ever. It is more interesting how you can measure three best composers, or best works, but then equalizing clasical with pop where is gap so obvious. No problem to say that somebody is better than Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Bartok, Stravinsky, Wagner , Ravel, but somehow Madona, Michael Jackson, Drake, Rihanna are on same level with CM composers. "You know, its all different, but no one is better, but hey, Mozart is the greatest. God give him notes".

Also, another case is famous " best 20th century composer". What means this phrase? "Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich or Bartok are among 20th century greats". Why limit these artists on one century? Is Mozart 18th century great? Oh no, he is "greatest gift to humanity and "Beethoven struggle is inspiration for ages". They are "all time greats". First among equals.
Could you point, precisely, to where someone has said any of this? It makes discussion so much more profitable if we can deal with what people actually said, rather than vapid generalisations.

I can certainly recall at least one specific individual who has said on TC that there are no objective criteria by which it can be definitively shown that Beethoven is better than Ravel and both are better than Taylor Swift. He nevertheless reported that by his own criteria, he, like the rest of us, ranked music according to what he liked most. (It was't me that I had in mind, but I agreed with him.)

Others have counter-argued.

I see no hypocrisy.
 

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In the end, the dispute over subjective v. objective criteria for assessing the worth of any composer or music is simple. If the music is a side effect of evolution, everything is subjective, and rap is neither worse nor better than Bach. If you think that music and beauty in general are but a reflection of the divine then it is another matter. What is hypocritic is trying to find an objective footing for assessing the intrinsic worth of music in today's secular liberal pieties.
 

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No problem to say that somebody is better than Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Bartok, Stravinsky, Wagner , Ravel, but somehow Madona, Michael Jackson, Drake, Rihanna are on same level with CM composers.
I think you're confusing performers with composers.

This discussion has no solution; there will always be people who think Jackson is a composer on the level of Beethoven and that Madonna is as important as Wagner. But people have short memories and short lives. All of those name compos.,ers above died famous and their music has lived on and will continue to be played, listened to, recorded and loved for many more years. Time is the ultimate critic and those guys have passed the test. Will Madonna? Jackson? Who knows. Just as there are many classical composers whose music is largely ignored and forgotten, the same thing happens to pop performers and especially pop composers. (It's Frank Sinatra's "My Way", but not really. Paul Anka wrote it.) I'm old and I can tell you that there have been countless pop composers/performers from the '50s and '60s who are totally forgotten. There are some, like James Darren, who occasionally shows up at retirement communities to make a few bucks. But when that generation who grew up with him is gone, and that won't be long, his musical career will be dust. Time will tell whether Madonna, Jackson, Drake (who?), or Rhianna (who?) will last. I find it interesting that one group, the Beatles, is still popular and selling some 60 years after they arrived. And I can't help but think that one reason for their fame and staying power was the huge influence of their classically trained producer George Martin.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
In the end, the dispute over subjective v. objective criteria for assessing the worth of any composer or music is simple. If the music is a side effect of evolution, everything is subjective, and rap is neither worse nor better than Bach. If you think that music and beauty in general are but a reflection of the divine then it is another matter. What is hypocritic is trying to find an objective footing for assessing the intrinsic worth of music in today's secular liberal pieties.
I think music is reflection of the gift, talent and human spirit. It is crazy to search for best composer among so many gifted composers with similar properties, but then talks about equality with pop music.
 

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Hypocrisy vibe

I don't want to provoke an argument, but ... nobody wrote Bach's music better than did Bach; nobody wrote Mozart's music better than did Mozart; nobody wrote Beethoven's music better than did Beethoven; but almost anybody, I suspect, can sing Miley Cyrus songs better than does Miley Cyrus.

Please, no comments, please. I've said all I have to say on the subject of this thread. I hope no hypocrisy is showing.

By the way: I remain a big fan of Milt Jackson, so don't hold "vibes" against me either.
 

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Hypocrisy vibe

I don't want to provoke an argument, but ... nobody wrote Bach's music better than did Bach; nobody wrote Mozart's music better than did Mozart; nobody wrote Beethoven's music better than did Beethoven; but almost anybody, I suspect, can sing Miley Cyrus songs better than does Miley Cyrus.

Please, no comments, please. I've said all I have to say on the subject of this thread. I hope no hypocrisy is showing.

By the way: I remain a big fan of Milt Jackson, so don't hold "vibes" against me either.
I’m really sorry but I have to say it’s a bad analogy. You’re comparing composing with singing. Probably a lot of people can play Beethoven’s piano pieces better than he could. And no one can write Beatle songs better than the Beatles
 

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It's a lose lose really; Classical has held firm for centuries but Folk/Pop have always been the most popular in there own era and classical has always barrowed from folk/pop over the centuries.

And folk/pop barrows from folk/pop as well,for instance look at how the English blues rock bands of the 60's and 70's ripped off the American black bluesmen.Then look at how the Rap artists of the 1908's and later sampled the daylights out of those same white rock bands(almost ironic)

Plagiarism was the likely true motive of the Manson murders (The helter skelter theory was nonsense) Manson wrote a pretty good folk song robbed by the beach boys with some lyrical changes but otherwise same tune.That is what pushed Manson over the edge(and 3000 hits of acid didn't help either) Not that that's any excuse for what they did,no need to kill anyone when they had a good lawsuit against the Beach Boys.

Even "Where have all the flowers gone" was taken from an old Cosack folk song called Tov Chu Mak.

It's all a hypocritical mess really,no disagreement here LOL
 

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FWIW, I think that "secular liberal pieties" is meaningless twaddle.
It is not. The topic does not belong here, and I can point you to quite a bit of (mostly) accessible literature, but given your somewhat jaundiced reaction, I suspect that you are perfectly well aware of what I am talking about, and that you subscribe to a good deal of these pieties yourself. After all, you hail from GB, and I know my British compatriots all too well. The one thing I am trying to avoid is getting into heated internet discussions with people I have never met. And you seem to be spoiling for a fight. "I did give you a chance..." Seriously?
 

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It is not. The topic does not belong here, and I can point you to quite a bit of (mostly) accessible literature, but given your somewhat jaundiced reaction, I suspect that you are perfectly well aware of what I am talking about, and that you subscribe to a good deal of these pieties yourself. After all, you hail from GB, and I know my British compatriots all too well. The one thing I am trying to avoid is getting into heated internet discussions with people I have never met. And you seem to be spoiling for a fight. "I did give you a chance..." Seriously?
With due respect, using incendiary language and then stating that you are avoiding conflict when someone takes the bait is disingenuous. Also, making personal generalizations based on nationality is problematic.

In regards to the OP - I haven't witnessed the type of hypocrisy you refer to. May I offer a suggestion that if you wish to discuss great pop music that you go to the sub-forum and discuss great pop music? Finding like-minded individuals may be the more successful approach.
 
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With due respect, using incendiary language and then stating that you are avoiding conflict when someone takes the bait is disingenuous. Also, making personal generalizations based on nationality is problematic.

In regards to the OP - I haven't witnessed the type of hypocrisy you refer to. May I offer a suggestion that if you wish to discuss great pop music that you go to the sub-forum and discuss great pop music? Finding like-minded individuals may be the more successful approach.
I do not want to discuss pop music or any other kind of inferior art at all. As for the nationality issues, this is between me and my British compatriots. Cheers. Sorry, no cheers yet.I am rather curious, what part of my innocuous post you regard incendiary? Or is it just a clever way of getting the moderators' attention?
 

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I think you're confusing performers with composers.
I find it interesting that one group, the Beatles, is still popular and selling some 60 years after they arrived. And I can't help but think that one reason for their fame and staying power was the huge influence of their classically trained producer George Martin.
You could conceivably call THE BEATLES a team effort, and that they also encompassed both composing AND performing. Well, so did Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, and Liszt.

That team of Martin, McCartney, Lennon, and Harrison (and to a lesser extent, Starr, and probably everyone else that has ever been named "the fifth Beatle") somehow created music over the course of just over seven years that has lasted sixty years so far.

I'm of the opinion that the whole was greater than their parts, and all of those "parts" evolved quickly over those seven years.
So, yes, Martin was very influential on their sound, and how their songs were recorded, even altered, especially in the first five years. As a songwriting TEAM, Lennon/McCartney were astonishing in their instincts most of the time, and the team of four musicians played with an innate musicality that was miraculous. Were there better musicians than them? Of course there were. So why are their recorded performances remembered while better musicians are not?

Well, the musicality. They were able to connect with their audience, through their words, tunes, delivery, etc. It was something that is difficult to pin down and define.
 
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