[DavidA]

As someone from a working class background I get sick of middle-class lefties spouting their middle-class leftie views which generally have nothing to do with the people they claim to represent. Wagner enjoyed luxury, he enjoyed a fetish for silks, he enjoyed the sponsorship of a mad king and had no scruples about taking his money. He wrote operas, the attendance of which is the domain of the middle class rich. You cannot get a more elitist art entertainment than opera. Lefties who go on about claiming Wagner just delude themselves. Opera by nature is the domain of the middle classes.

 

[DavidA]

Was it necessary to distract David with another Wagner thread? He was just about to explain how music changes society...

Just stating facts. Anything wrong with that? Sorry!

 

[DavidA]

An interesting article. Thanks.

I am not a fan of Wagner's music, or, more accurately, I have yet to hear any that would prompt me to investigate his work further. (I'm not a fan of opera more generally, so Wagner starts with a disadvantage. Nor could I bring myself to listen to Wagner Without Words, or the ghastly entitled 'bleeding chunks' - ugh.)

I am nevertheless interested in his role in the evolution of CM and in the controversy (surely not worth still lingering over?) about his beliefs. As I'm not one who made any assumptions about his politics (or any knowledge, come to that, beyond his anti-semitism), I'm not altogether surprised to read of his early revolutionary instincts and the potential for "leftist" interpretations of his works.

Neither of these comments are essential contributions to the subject of the OP. Can't we keep personal attitudes to politics out of this, please?

And your opinions and those of the article quoted by the OP are not personal opinions I suppose? And your opinions are not personal opinions either? We are being asked for opinion. Please!

 

[DavidA]

No, you weren't stating facts, any more than you were stating facts in the other thread about music changing society...

...Well, I suppose it might be a fact that you "get sick of"

Really? So what facts wasn't I stating?

 

[DavidA]

These are not facts:

Interesting that you leave out the facts I stated about the composer under discussion. Also opinion based on observation is not allowed unless it agrees with yours?

 

[DavidA]

Come on... Hitler's entire rise to leadership is as if he acquired the ring of power, the Ring cycle is the ring in this very world, or was at that time, it acted as it.

Wagner's problem is that he began the revolution, or gave the tools for it to happen, but never correctly instructed on what to do with power, his music has only the rage it takes to rise, but never the balance and reason it takes to rule. It's a maker of tyrants if taken seriously and Hitler certainly did.

I think this is an extreme view and we must ask the question where the Hitler would've risen to power had not Wagner been there. The answer if yes as Fascism and it's ideas were alive and well. The question as to whether Wagner was one factor that influenced Hitler is thinking must surely be answered in the positive as Hitler was a great admirer and Wagner's works are philosophical. Whether of course Hitler misread them is a matter of debate. Whether he was influenced by them is not. As he said his philosophy was found in Parsifal.

 

[DavidA]

He would not have, again, he wasn't creative, you can't do anything you can't imagine first and Wagner facilitates that considerably, even more so than a book or pure philosophy, the music incites powerful emotions as well as the philosophy.

No man has ever done anything without a creative philosopher behind him.

For goodness sake there was a lot of 'creative' fascist philosophy around

 

[DavidA]

He would not have, again, he wasn't creative, you can't do anything you can't imagine first and Wagner facilitates that considerably, even more so than a book or pure philosophy, the music incites powerful emotions as well as the philosophy.

No man has ever done anything without a creative philosopher behind him.

For goodness sake there was a lot of 'creative' fascist philosophy around. Musso in Italy? Franco in Spain? It didn't need Wagner

 

[DavidA]

They didn't take over Europe did they? Wagner gave Hitler the ring of power, it was more, it arose the most extreme in Hitler's ambition.

Yes but there were plenty more fascists who were not Wagnerites. I'm not saying Wagner wasn't an influence - he was. He probably influenced Hitler's decision to let the Reich perish in a Gotterdamerung of flames. But Hitler's ambitions were there without wagner.

 

[DavidA]

Maybe you give him too much credit, he was an average artist, what makes you think he had the vision or the ambition? Wagner on the other hand... If anything Hitler not talking about it only confirms how important it was to him, so much as to keep it a secret.

If you think Hitler did it on his own or that Wagner wasn't as important, then maybe art isn't enough and a hands on approach is what's needed.

Hitler obviously did have the vision and ambition because he did it. He very nearly conquered the whole of Europe. It took a host of nations to defeat him.

 

[DavidA]

But if you look back at Alexander, he couldn't have done it without Aristotle, and him in turn without Plato. It's interesting how it works but mental strength is what conquers, not anything physical, it's all in the mind transmitted from one person to another.

Hitler inspired the whole of Germany but what inspired him? In a way it was Wagner's power than was transmitted through Hitler to the German people, which then allowed them to take over Europe.

This is the ring metaphor.

Now you're arguing for arguing sake. You might just as well say that Lehar and his Merry Widow helped Adolf invade Poland.

Of course Alexander could've done it without Aristotle. Alexander was a great military leader and a tyrant so when the two come together you get a conqueror

 

[DavidA]

No, that's not how it works, he was wise because of the many years of philosophy transmitted by Aristotle, this is what made him a great leader.

Sorry mate but you're putting too much value on philosophy.

 

[DavidA]

I'm thinking out loud, we can figure this whole thing right here.

Try thinking quietly for a change! :lol:

 

[DavidA]

No, philosophy is what unlocks the mind to then act in the real world. The mind is everything, in each and every endeavour.

Oh for goodness sake, philosophy is the art of making the obvious seem profound and the simple appear difficult. A philosopher told me that!

 

[DavidA]

The evidence is Hitler's poor skills as an artist. There is no creativity or passion showed, which must mean that he was getting it from somewhere else/

You don't need to be an artist to lead a nation. Thatcher wasn't!