Classical Music Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
181 - 194 of 194 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
3,037 Posts
I am not going to engage in a political discussion of this kind in greater detail. Whatever claims might be made Capitalism has its own flaws and failures. The larger issue is that all systems are subject to abuse, and that tendency grows over time. Unfortunately, stability is also a basic reason for having a system in the first place, and little good can be accomplished under a regime of chaos.
 
G

·
the western european system of liberal democracy, and combining capitalism with welfare system is as perfect as you are going to get. The English and American system was subverted by decades of corrosive neoliberal ideology (privatization über Alles, which in practice meant privatizing the profits, nationalizing the losses). You have lived in a neoliberal capitalist system and witnessed the capitalist greed, so maybe you have some fantasies about communism. I have experienced communism (though only a couple of years of my life) and I know that the right way is somewhere in the middle.
I have no fantasies about communism. I have no illusions about capitalism. I also don't regard 'history' as the sole arbiter of what might work better in the future. It only tells us what didn't work in the past, and helps to account for what isn't working now.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,502 Posts
I have no fantasies about communism. I have no illusions about capitalism. I also don't regard 'history' as the sole arbiter of what might work better in the future. It only tells us what didn't work in the past, and helps to account for what isn't working now.
Agreed. History is not the sole arbiter but it is a big factor in learning from what has worked and what hasn't and avoiding the same mistakes.
 
G

·
Agreed. History is not the sole arbiter but it is a big factor in learning from what has worked and what hasn't and avoiding the same mistakes.
Learning is a slow process. It would be nice to think that 'mankind' is going to arrive at some place in the future where a successul ideology has been implemented that benefits all. I doubt that will happen in my lifetime, but it also won't happen by dismissing ideologies out of hand simply because the only examples available to us are failed ones.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,502 Posts
Learning is a slow process. It would be nice to think that 'mankind' is going to arrive at some place in the future where a successul ideology has been implemented that benefits all. I doubt that will happen in my lifetime, but it also won't happen by dismissing ideologies out of hand simply because the only examples available to us are failed ones.
Communism is fundamentally flawed and will never work. Dismissing a fundamentally flawed ideology, whose failure is also supported by history, is what smart people who don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past do.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Capitalism is fundamentally flawed and will never work. Seriously, the only concern of capitalism is making profits for the capitalists. ALL of the systems humans have tried are flawed. We need to move beyond the old ideas and actually evolve. I'm not sure we have enough time for that, though.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,502 Posts
Capitalism is fundamentally flawed and will never work. Seriously, the only concern of capitalism is making profits for the capitalists. ALL of the systems humans have tried are flawed. We need to move beyond the old ideas and actually evolve. I'm not sure we have enough time for that, though.
The best we have had we have now in countries like Canada, Norway, Finland, for example, where socialist welfare policies work within a capitalist system. Pure capitalism works best for a minority of people (a much larger minority than communism) but capitalism mixed with social policies seems to be working for the majority. For now.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Not long ago I would have agreed with you and I feel that we might be allies in many ways. That said, those systems that you mentioned rely to some extent on the exploitation of the global south. It seems that some must always be victimized for the benefit of others in even the best of our current systems. Unfortunately, I don't have a solution. Humans are very flawed.
 
G

·
ALL of the systems humans have tried are flawed.
Quite. That's partly because some of the 'systems' are not systems at all. No-one sat down and 'invented' capitalism and then set about implementing it. It just evolved - differently in different societies - and has been amenable to post-hoc analysis which is why it's now a 'thing' we can talk about. The same is true of 'communism', though it has a clearer history of deliberate political development. The attempts at government in certain countries using some of these ideas has not only been imperfect, but disastrous in some very obvious cases. That does not render all the ideas behind them as inherently flawed, though that rather depends on your view of human nature.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,280 Posts
Quite. That's partly because some of the 'systems' are not systems at all. No-one sat down and 'invented' capitalism and then set about implementing it. It just evolved - differently in different societies - and has been amenable to post-hoc analysis which is why it's now a 'thing' we can talk about. The same is true of 'communism', though it has a clearer history of deliberate political development. The attempts at government in certain countries using some of these ideas has not only been imperfect, but disastrous in some very obvious cases. That does not render all the ideas behind them as inherently flawed, though that rather depends on your view of human nature.
Of course, this does not render all the ideas of communism fundamentally flawed, but the idea as a whole is fairly, evidently, horribly, flawed. Every time it has been tried on a large scale, a lot of people in the place in which it is tried die as a direct result of their own government's action; any reasonable person would conclude that, therefore, these are not ideas we should be trying again and again. The evidence is already in.

Capitalism has many issues but has successfully lifted billions of people out of poverty which is far more than any other economic system can claim. It also doesn't result in mass murder of the countries own citizens so that's a nice bonus.
 
G

·
Of course, this does not render all the ideas of communism fundamentally flawed, but the idea as a whole is fairly, evidently, horribly, flawed. Every time it has been tried on a large scale, a lot of people in the place in which it is tried die as a direct result of their own government's action; any reasonable person would conclude that, therefore, these are not ideas we should be trying again and again. The evidence is already in.

Capitalism has many issues but has successfully lifted billions of people out of poverty which is far more than any other economic system can claim. It also doesn't result in mass murder of the countries own citizens so that's a nice bonus.
You miss the point. I'm arguing that there is no 'it'. 'Communism' - whatever 'it' is, does not entail the mass murder of its own citizens. That's something else altogether. 'Tyranny', perhaps. Or just 'mass-murder-of-citizens-ism'.
 
181 - 194 of 194 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top