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You surely qualify as a well behaved good boy [...]
Well thank you! That's a kind thing to say.

but I still like to show humility and respect for those who have actually contributed to who we are.
There is indeed nothing wrong with that. But that wasn't really the point I was trying to make.
Of course, one can make a suggestion to the admins and mods that anyone who writes something like "Wagner is lame" or "Mozart's music sucks" deserves a penalty, too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Captain, your thread title strikes me as bizarre. I thought you were a big fan of Mozart, and not just of Symphonies 40 and 41. I believe I recall your starting a thread just to comment on how charming Mozart's 1st Symphony was.

So what happened?
I'm not limiting it to those two, but I think there are fewer masterpieces in these eras compared to later ones. I do think Mozart is pure and innocent in a good way, just not all the time.

I'm starting to see the grey more, instead of making blanket black and white statements.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 · (Edited)
Well thank you! That's a kind thing to say.



There is indeed nothing wrong with that. But that wasn't really the point I was trying to make.
Of course, one can make a suggestion to the admins and mods that anyone who writes something like "Wagner is lame" or "Mozart's music sucks" deserves a penalty, too.
I think what made my thread title ok, was that I qualified it with "I find" rather than making an objective statement.
 

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I think what made my thread title ok, was that I qualified it with "I find" rather than making an objective statements.
Relax. :)
I was puzzled by the thread title, I did not think it made all that much sense, I admit that (and I wrote about it)... but so far I have been contributing quite a lot. ;)
Don't forget: Bach, Händel, Haydn, Mozart: they already faced plenty of criticism, sometimes even quite harsh, during their life & career, and now they're dead. My guess is that they won't be really bothered.
Being a great admirer of all of them, I can only speak for myself, and I'm not really bothered, either.
 

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Funny how this forum allows and encourages any random opinion and expression of desecration towards the pillars of Western culture, but if you dare hurt the sensibility of a random forum poster, the moderator will come and make you a lesson of how to act like a good mommy’s boy.
This seems a bit exaggerated, I don't think the language of this thread was strong enough to express desecration but should it be the case it just shows that the forum is embedded in the current culture that shows very similar features (to a far greater extent, both the ignorance or desecration of lots of history, especially "pillars" and the coddling of individuals, usually those who complain the loudest).
 

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I shouldn't respond to this OP - it is just too far from how I feel. If I were to list my favourite 100 pieces (not that I could) I am sure that more than half of them would be Baroque or Classical. Any many more pieces that didn't make my list would still be works that I would hate to do without. Just to take Mozart, to reduce his works to just the last two symphonies is to ignore many more symphonies, several wonderful concertos, a lot of great quartets and several marvellous operas - works that I can't imagine anyone who has tried failing to register their greatness.

And then there is Haydn, Bach and Handel ... .

I get that some people only really like Romantic music or Modern music ... and fair enough, I suppose. But how to really get that music without knowledge and a real feel for what came before? There isn't much to add to a statement dismissing the rest and the only possible reply to that dismissal must be "you don't know what you are missing".
 

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A case can be made (I will make it) that the passage of time and the increasing number of tools available to composers allows for an ever-increasing palette of "colors", rhythms, longer-winded melodies, etc that were not available to composers of earlier eras. Hence there is more to hear and more to love as we approach and reach Bartok, Martinu, Stravinsky, Ravel, Debussy, even Respighi. I began mostly with 20th century music and have moved back in time over the decades to Mozart, Bach & company, finding much treasure in the older music. It may be what we first hear and have imprinted on us that determines our early enthusiasms, but as the years pass, the Captain will likely also discover the joys of earlier music, though not necessarily in the same abundance as, say, from Brahms to Bartok.
 

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A case could also be made to a rather different conclusion that more mediocre music of the 17th and 18th century was weeded out by history compared to more recent times. Or that the high virtuosity and orchestral palette since the mid-late 19th century allowed composers to beef up mediocre ideas and structures.
 

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A case can be made (I will make it) that the passage of time and the increasing number of tools available to composers allows for an ever-increasing palette of "colors" rhythms, longer-winded melodies, etc that were not available to composers of earlier eras. Hence there is more to hear and more to love as we approach and reach Bartok, Martinu, Stravinsky, Ravel, Debussy, even Respighi. I began mostly with 20th century music and have moved back in time over the decades to Mozart, Bach & company, finding much treasure in the older music. It may be what we first hear and have imprinted on us that determines our early enthusiasms, but as the years pass, the Captain will likely also discover the joys of earlier music, though not necessarily in the same abundance as, say, from Brahms to Bartok.
Even more than the "colors" of rhythm and melodies I think the more limited palette of instrumental/orchestral colors is what prevents me from enjoying the baroque-and-earlier eras more than I do. My love for melody and musical drama still pushes Handel into my top 5 composers, and I can appreciate intellectually (if not always be moved by emotionally) the harmonic complexity of Bach and many of his predecessors; but it's nice to come back to romantic-and-later music and hear such a diverse range of instrumental and tonal coloring that isn't relying on JUST melody and harmony, but also the subtle moods, atmospheres, and aesthetics afforded by the greater amount of instruments, not to mention the expanded concepts of tonality especially from late romanticism onward. The classical era sounds, to me, like a transitional period between the rather spartan palettes of the baroque-and-prior eras with the much more expansive palettes that came after. It's very much the point where I, personally, don't find much of anything limiting my musical enjoyment, at least with the greats like Mozart and Haydn. Maybe there's still something missing in terms of the more nuanced atmospheric/tonal elements I mentioned above, but most modern music also lacks the facility with melody and form that Mozart and Haydn possessed to, so it's more of an equal (to me) tradeoff.
 

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Yes I remember him saying that Mozart’s music is “pure and innocent” in a good way. I assumed it applied to more than just two symphonies and a few sonatas.
So, incongruous statements, both of which are cliches? Yes, this certainly merits further inquiry. :rolleyes:
 

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Interestingly, I never found Viennese classical music less attractive because of the slightly smaller orchestra. Although the very first pieces that drew me in were mostly romantic (Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Grieg) as soon as I really discovered Mozart and especially Beethoven I long tended to prefer the late Mozart/Haydn Beethoven orchestra, i.e. flute(s), oboes, clarinet, bassoons, horns, trumpets, timpani, strings with any additional brass, percussion, piccolo etc. if at all only for special occasions (I even found these instruments often a bit "gimmicky"). I sometimes missed the clarinet in earlier classical works but it's really a minor point (I liked Mozart's "little g minor" immediately, without ever thinking about missing trumpets or clarinets). Bruckner and some other late romantics, even Schubert's 9th I found a bit too "brassy" at that time and I preferred the sound of Mendelssohn to Brahms (although this was not such a strong preference to make me dislike Brahms or even Bruckner or Mahler).
As for baroque, it was with a few exceptions not such a focus for almost 10 years until my mid-late 20s. But I just accepted that the Brandenburg concertos had a rather different sound than a classical symphony without being any lesser. Or that Vivaldi's 4 Seasons were strings only.
 

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Even more than the "colors" of rhythm and melodies I think the more limited palette of instrumental/orchestral colors is what prevents me from enjoying the baroque-and-earlier eras more than I do. My love for melody and musical drama still pushes Handel into my top 5 composers, and I can appreciate intellectually (if not always be moved by emotionally) the harmonic complexity of Bach and many of his predecessors; but it's nice to come back to romantic-and-later music and hear such a diverse range of instrumental and tonal coloring that isn't relying on JUST melody and harmony, but also the subtle moods, atmospheres, and aesthetics afforded by the greater amount of instruments, not to mention the expanded concepts of tonality especially from late romanticism onward. The classical era sounds, to me, like a transitional period between the rather spartan palettes of the baroque-and-prior eras with the much more expansive palettes that came after. It's very much the point where I, personally, don't find much of anything limiting my musical enjoyment, at least with the greats like Mozart and Haydn. Maybe there's still something missing in terms of the more nuanced atmospheric/tonal elements I mentioned above, but most modern music also lacks the facility with melody and form that Mozart and Haydn possessed to, so it's more of an equal (to me) tradeoff.
Yes, I remember being surprised at how many subtle melodies there are in the Handel keyboard suites. When you play through them you're pleasantly surprised (at my young age I didn't expect it from dusty old Handel). They impressed me as more unabashedly lyrical than the suites of JSB.
 
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Yes, I remember being surprised at how many subtle melodies there are in the Handel keyboard suites. When you play through them you're pleasantly surprised (at my young age I didn't expect it from dusty old Handel). They impressed me as more unabashedly lyrical than the suites of JSB.
You should try to hear Mahan Esfahani’s Bach Partitas. I say this because they are a deliberately Handelian interpretation of the Bach.
 

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You should try to hear Mahan Esfahani’s Bach Partitas. I say this because they are a deliberately Handelian interpretation of the Bach.

Thanks. I found this hour long recital. The program looks interesting, and he explains along the way.

and this lyrical Handel from Eric H.
 
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It's all good. But if you make a thread like this about contemporary music, woe be unto you. You'll have commenters coming out of the woodwork who haven't been around since 2014 and moderators alternating 12 hour shifts to keep an eye out for mayhem.
To be fair though, a good many, if not the great majority, of those anti-contemporary (or anti: modernism, serial, avant-garde) threads do tend to speak in language that seems quite a bit more as if the poster's opinion, is objective fact. The OP of this thread made it clear it is their opinion.

As a fan of contemporary, serial, atonal, modernist, avant-garde classical music, I fully understand I am in the minority here. I understand that most do not like it, and I am perfectly fine with other's opinions.

And let me add, that a good many of the anti-contemporary remarks tended to be pretty snarky. Although this seems to have improved in the last year or so.
 

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I have tried quite a few times, and continue to try. I actually have a fairly sizable collection of Classical era recordings that I return to from time to time, to see if they will click for me.

While I am sure you are correct with your estimation of over 80% of classical coming from pre-20th century eras, I have absolutely no problems finding new composers and pieces to listen to. If anything, keeping up with all the great music from the last 80 or so years, is hard enough. I make new discoveries on a weekly basis.

Even keeping up with still living composers keeps me busy, and discovering new composers all the time.
I have to ask, just because it got me into classical music, have you tried Beethoven symphonies? I mean every one of them and with a good recording? They’re all pretty unique and they don’t sound the same, at least to me. If you need recording recommendations let me know
 

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I would bet the author of this thread is a young person, probably 35 years of age or less. Almost everyone starts out with high octane romantic music, then tires of it after a decade or so and begins to discover the world of classical music goes way beyond exaggerated noises, volcanic speeds, and heightened romantic ideas.
Not in my own experience and the young people that I’ve talked too. Most people actually start with Beethoven and Mozart because they are the most ‘popular’ composers for non-classical music fans. I started with Haydn’s 83rd symphony actually.
 

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To be fair though, a good many, if not the great majority, of those anti-contemporary (or anti: modernism, serial, avant-garde) threads do tend to speak in language that seems quite a bit more as if the poster's opinion, is objective fact. The OP of this thread made it clear it is their opinion.
...
So...if you're convinced that what they're saying is just opinion anyway (like everything else), why get upset about it? I don't feel victimized just because somebody doesn't like Baroque, even if they express their dislike with a heaping helping of snark (and that happens too sometimes). Big deal.
 
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