[hpowders]

I prefer van Immerseel's performances of the complete Mozart keyboard concertos over Malcolm Bilson's for one thing, because the former is better recorded. One can hardly hear Bilson's instrument. Most likely Bilson was playing "within", that is, surrounded by the orchestra whereas Immerseel was performing the modern way, in front of the orchestra.

Also, Bilson goes a bit nuts with ornamentation making me distracted. This is especially sinful in the slow movements where Mozart's beautiful lines can stand alone. Bilson does Mozart no favors by "helping" him with ornamentation.
To his credit, Immerseel is smart enough to know when to get out of the way and let Mozart's music stand on its own.

I don't know why performers believe they are doing any service to the listener by heavily ornamenting Mozart on recordings.
This is fine for live performance, but for a recording to be played repeatedly, it just proves to be distracting.

So ornament freely "live"; sparingly for recordings.

 

[Manxfeeder]

So my questions:

(1) What have been your evolving experiences with listening to the fortepiano?
(2) What recordings have changed how you heard the instrument in a positive way-and, as a consequence, how you hear the music in a new way?

I think this only qualifies as half-praise, but it still is praise, right?

1. I don't generally like the fortepiano. BUT . . .
2. Having said that, I've been pleasantly surprised by Melvyn Tan's recording of the Beethoven concertos.
3. I don't know if I've heard the music in a new way; it's been more of, "Son of a gun, that guy can make a fortepiano sound good."

Okay. Back to the comments with full-on praise.

 

[Mandryka]

What is true is that often modern pianists don't play for clarity of each note, and often fortepianists do. But, listen. If a pianist knows how to drive a Steinway, they can play with just as much clarity if they choose to, at least in music with moderate tempos. One example would be Arrau's digital op 110/i, the one from his final Beethoven set.

I conclude that any lack of clarity is an interprative choice, a decision about texture, not a limitation of the instrument. A choice you may not care for, but that's irrelevant.

 

[hpowders]

Yes, Alypius, the fortepiano has come a long way.

When it first came out in the early 1990's on Erato, I bought the complete Mozart Keyboard Sonatas played on fortepiano by Alexeï Lubimov. The various fortepianos played on the recent Kristian Bezuidenhout set are a sight for sore ears in comparison.
Much better!

 

[Alypius]

I think this only qualifies as half-praise, but it still is praise, right?

1. I don't generally like the fortepiano. BUT . . .
2. Having said that, I've been pleasantly surprised by Melvyn Tan's recording of the Beethoven concertos.
3. I don't know if I've heard the music in a new way; it's been more of, "Son of a gun, that guy can make a fortepiano sound good."

Okay. Back to the comments with full-on praise.

Manx, Thanks. Actually your comments are exactly the sort of measured comments that I expected and, in some ways, hoped for. I figured that there are a relatively small number of full-on enthusiasts, but there are others at various junctures along the spectrum. In phrasing the opening post as I did, I mainly wanted to avoid unfettered bashing and crude caricatures. I want and appreciate honest reservations.

I haven't heard Melvyn Tan's recordings of the Beethoven, but have read some good things about them. And so it's a helpful confirmation for me.

I myself have found my own appreciation of the fortepiano has grown slowly, only after hearing a variety of recordings and hearing the best of those repeatedly. Also, for me, the fortepiano in the right hands and with the right recording engineers offers helpful alternatives of familiar works. I had heard some recordings, especially some of the pioneering ones, that didn't appeal to me. While I have enjoyed many of John Eliot Gardiner's performances of a variety of works (from Monteverdi to Holst), his Mozart concertos with Bilson did not appeal to me for the most part. In retrospect, I think that the choices about how they were recorded was a major factor. Bilson's fortepiano sounds too weak against the rest of the orchestra. I see that hp has made more detailed comments above about that performance and spells out the specifics of the problem.

Ronald Brautigam has discussed his conviction of the need for newly-made fortepianos vs. older restored versions. New instruments are beginning to appear more often in recordings, and it will be interesting to see if they begin to shift people's opinions. But I think the biggest factors will be a variety of performers using them and continued improvement in the engineering. One of the reasons that I led off with the mention of the new Melnikov / Faust / Queyras performance of Beethoven's piano trios was its superb sound engineering and Melnikov's quite fresh style and sound.

The evolution of the acceptance of other forms of period practice and authentic instruments has been quite gradual. Some of it has been the audience, some of it has been the performers themselves (in some case, requiring the emergence of a whole new generation of performers who were trained as period specialists). It will be interesting to see developments.

 

[Alypius]

Yes, Alypius, the fortepiano has come a long way.

When it first came out in the early 1990's on Erato, I bought the complete Mozart Keyboard Sonatas played on fortepiano by Alexeï Lubimov. The various fortepianos played on the recent Kristian Bezuidenhout set are a sight for sore ears in comparison.
Much better!

Hp, Have you heard Alexei Lubimov's recent performances of Debussy on a period piano? In this case, it's a piano that dates from Debussy's time, not a fortepiano but it does sound quite different from modern Steinways. It received considerable critical acclaim and a number of awards. Since it was recorded by ECM, the sound quality is remarkable:

I think we're going to see many more of such efforts -- and it will be liable to raise eyebrows and perhaps cause real controversy from those accustomed to modern instruments.

 

[Chordalrock]

What is true is that often modern pianists don't play for clarity of each note, and often fortepianists do. But, listen. If a pianist knows how to drive a Steinway, they can play with just as much clarity if they choose to, at least in music with moderate tempos. One example would be Arrau's digital op 110/i, the one from his final Beethoven set.

I conclude that any lack of clarity is an interprative choice, a decision about texture, not a limitation of the instrument. A choice you may not care for, but that's irrelevant.

There is a difference brought about by the actual instruments, because modern concert pianos are cross strung - they're not as polyphonically clear, even just a single chord played isn't as polyphonically clear as with a fortepiano.

I've read this in liner notes and I've experienced it while listening to fortepiano music.

Basically, around the year 1900, piano makers started to sacrifice clarity to "improve" the sound. Actually, even earlier than that with many makers. I remember reading that Liszt still preferred straight strung pianos in a time when most piano makers had moved to cross strung ones.

 

[KenOC]

I prefer van Immerseel's performances of the complete Mozart keyboard concertos over Malcolm Bilson's...

I also prefer Immerseel's Mozart concertos to Bilson's. Another Immerseel recording I like a lot is the set of the Beethoven violin sonatas with Midori Seiler on the fiddle. And I'll give a strong mention to the Diabelli Variations played by Andreas Staier. I was very doubtful before listening to it!

 

[hpowders]

I also prefer Immerseel's Mozart concertos to Bilson's. Another Immerseel recording I like a lot is the set of the Beethoven violin sonatas with Midori Seiler on the fiddle. And I'll give a strong mention to the Diabelli Variations played by Andreas Staier. I was very doubtful before listening to it!

I have Midori Seiler playing unaccompanied Bach and her baroque violin playing is astonishing.
I'm not a big fan of the collective Beethoven violin sonatas, save for 3 or 4.
I will investigate the Staier Diabelli Variations. I have Ashkenazy and consider it one of his most successful recordings, but I would like to hear this on fortepiano. Thanks!

 

[SimonNZ]

Love the fortepiano in all its variety. I've got a goodly collection at home - I'll look for the favorites and report back (it will be nice to have a reason to dig them all out and hear them again.)

First order of business is to praise the work done by Jorg Demus on fortepiano (every bit as essential as his more famous recordings on modern piano. His album of Schubert lieder accompanying Elly Ameling on fortepiano was a revelation when I first heard it and is still a delight.

and another vote here for Melven Tan's Beethoven. His disc of the Op.3 sonatas in particular is essential listening, imo.

 

[Guest]

Simon NZ's heads-up for Melvyn Tan seconded !

 

[hpowders]

Hp, Have you heard Alexei Lubimov's recent performances of Debussy on a period piano? In this case, it's a piano that dates from Debussy's time, not a fortepiano but it does sound quite different from modern Steinways. It received considerable critical acclaim and a number of awards. Since it was recorded by ECM, the sound quality is remarkable:

I think we're going to see many more of such efforts -- and it will be liable to raise eyebrows and perhaps cause real controversy from those accustomed to modern instruments.

No. Thanks for the heads up. I'll put it on my list.

 

[Couac Addict]

...shame that he has to build his own.

 

[Alypius]

...shame that he has to build his own.

I appreciate that you're joking. But actually it is the whole point. If you look at the sequence of the BIS covers for Brautigam's Mozart concerto cycle, you'll see that they offer a visual account of the gradual construction of a new fortepiano. The wood-chopping cover is obviously the crudest starting point, but things progress down to the careful fine tuning of things. Brautigam has said somewhere (I looked again and can't find it) that he believed that restored fortepianos, for all the wonders of their restoration, can be 'tired' and lack the full-bodied sound of a new instrument. He wanted a new instrument. In one of the videos I saw the instrument maker himself speaking. In any case, BIS apparently used Brautigam's extolling of a new instrument as a cue for the theme of their covers. Here's a few more:

 

[Guest]

This will be for you, Alypius (link to first part of the documentary, features Melvyn Tan) :

 

[Alypius]

This will be for you, Alypius (link to first part of the documentary, features Melvyn Tan) :

TalkingH, Thanks so much for that link! It's an incredibly well done documentary on Beethoven's personal fortepiano. All the comments on the strings and hammers, the differences between an English fortepiano vs. a Viennese conception of it. It's also got great insights into the whole process of instrument restoration. The instrument maker is very articulate about the process and the history. It's must-viewing for those interested in the instrument.

 

[millionrainbows]

I like Brautigam's Beethoven. And from way back in time, I've been listening to Anthony Newman, who has done all the Mozart Sonatas, and Beethoven Concertos; I recommend those.


[URL="http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Concerto-Fantasy-Analytically-Indexed/dp/B00080LFFG/ref=sr_1_13?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=undefined&sr=1-13&keywords=Anthony+Newman"]




[/URL]

 

[Antiquarian]

Beethoven's Piano Sonatas are best played, in my humble opinion, on well maintained pre-Kimball Boesendorfers, if one does not have access to a Pleyel.

 

[Guest]

Brautigam is a master with the fortepiano.

I have several of his albums of Beethoven's piano works on the fortepiano. I also have his complete Mozart piano sonatas on fortepiano. And I also have two albums from his recordings of Haydn's solo keyboard works on fortepiano. I love them all.

 

[Guest]

Gramophone Magazine has recently posted its nominees for its best records of 2014 in various categories. One has caught my eye - or rather, ear. It's a performance of a pair of Beethoven's Piano Trios #6, op. 70, and #7, op. 97 ("Archduke"), with Isabelle Faust on violin, Jean-Guihen Queyras on cello and Alexander Melnikov on fortepiano (Harmonia mundi, 2014). While Faust and Melnikov have generally recorded with modern instruments, here both have switched over to period instruments.

The record has received quite dazzling reviews. Here's a typical one:

Note his emphasis on the fortepiano as a "gypsy dulcimer". Melnikov plays here on a restored 1826 Graff fortepiano. I've listened to this on spotify as well as clips on Harmonia mundi's website. The sound is extraordinary and the music itself has a freshness that I've not heard. (And I much admire the old Beaux Arts Trio performance of these). So it's now at the top of my wishlist.

A few years ago, it's a recording that I likely would have avoided. While I have been a fan of original instruments and historically informed performances for nearly 40 years, I have been rather slow to embrace performances with fortepiano. It has been often berated as sounding tinny, too much like a "toy piano." Yet it was the instrument that Haydn and Mozart and even Beethoven wrote for (though, I gather, that in Beethoven's case, instrument makers were making rapid strides even during his lifetime so that the sound of the best instruments was changing even as he was composing his masterpieces). Well, I'm now sold on it.

Please note the title: "In praise." It's ok to give critical reactions. But I'm interested in people's positive responses to the instrument, or their shift to the positive in their response to the instrument. So my questions:

(1) What have been your evolving experiences with listening to the fortepiano?
(2) What recordings have changed how you heard the instrument in a positive way-and, as a consequence, how you hear the music in a new way?
(3) What recordings exemplify the instrument at its best?

I would love a recording such as this, but my only concern is that I don't really know how well these three play period instruments. On modern instruments, they are wonderful. I have recordings from each of them that are great. But I don't know how they work switching instruments. Still, it is intriguing. I currently have the Archduke performed by the Kempff Trio on BIS that is my favorite.