[millionrainbows]

I've discovered, that many members here have 'politicized' modern music.

It has never been my intention to consciously "politicize" modern music, but apparently those who already have will say otherwise. It seems that a political undercurrent has been uncovered. Some members probably knew this all along.

The question arises: is the dialogue of "traditional forms of art and music vs. modern art" political by nature, since it is perceived by some as being liberal, leftist, Marxist, non-traditional, and even destructive of tradition?

Is this an attitude of those traditionalists who feel their tradition is being threatened?

Does "modernism" equate to "liberalism?"

Will we ever be able to discuss such a thing without it having political resonances, intended or not?

 

[Strange Magic]

I can and have discussed the "crisis" in music and the arts without it having political resonances. :angel:

 

[Mandryka]

I've discovered, that many members here have 'politicized' modern music.

It has never been my intention to consciously "politicize" modern music, but apparently those who already have will say otherwise. It seems that a political undercurrent has been uncovered. Some members probably knew this all along.

The question arises: is the dialogue of "traditional forms of art and music vs. modern art" political by nature, since it is perceived by some as being liberal, leftist, Marxist, non-traditional, and even destructive of tradition?

Is this an attitude of those traditionalists who feel their tradition is being threatened?

Does "modernism" equate to "liberalism?"

Will we ever be able to discuss such a thing without it having political resonances, intended or not?

I think the answer is yes for some composers, from Lachenmann and Nono donkeys years ago to, for example, Cynthia Zaven and Stefan Prins today. Of course many composers have no interest in politics, obvs.

But where the thread is misconceived is to locate the phenomenon in recent music. For example, Beethoven, Mozart and Wagner all had political agendas, more or less liberal.

It just is a fact that some people who write music have political ideals, and this comes out in their art, and others don't. And my guess is that it's been like that for a good 200 years.

 

[millionrainbows]

I think the answer is yes for some composers, from Lachenmann and Nono donkeys years ago to, for example, Cynthia Zaven and Stefan Prins today. Of course many composers have no interest in politics, obvs.

But where the thread is misconceived is to locate the phenomenon in recent music. For example, Beethoven, Mozart and Wagner all had political agendas, more or less liberal.

It just is a fact that some people who write music have political ideals, and this comes out in their art, and others don't. And my guess is that it's been like that for a good 200 years.

I wasn't thinking about composers, but the listeners here on this forum.

 

[Mandryka]

Ah, well in that case yes, if someone just dismisses all recent classical music outright that’s very good evidence that they are Alt Right IMO. Proud Boys probably.

 

[millionrainbows]

Ah, well in that case yes, if someone just dismisses all recent classical music outright that's very good evidence that they are Alt Right IMO. Proud Boys probably.

I think you're exaggerating a bit. I hope. :lol:

 

[Bulldog]

I wasn't thinking about composers, but the listeners here on this forum.

I'm not political concerning modern music, but you are. :tiphat:

 

[Mandryka]

One person who dismissed all the modern world, including music, was Furtwangler and he had political reasons for do doing I think.

 

[millionrainbows]

One person who dismissed all the modern world, including music, was Furtwangler and he had political reasons for do doing I think.

That's interesting, Mandryka. This is beginning to open up a whole new world of political speculation for me...

 

[millionrainbows]

I'm not political concerning modern music, but you are. :tiphat:

That's okay to be non-political about modern music, until a totalitarian government outlaws it for you. Then you're "drawn in" to the politics of it. :lol:

Hey Mandryka, is there a modernist scene in China?

 

[BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist]

Comment deleted, as this thread should probably be.

 

[millionrainbows]

"SHOULD, could, would, oughta, must, gotta:" These are all what are called "parent"words. The sayer is posing as a parent figure and telling you what you "should" do.

Remember those Venn diagram circles in the book "I'm OK, You're OK?" That's where each person has three aspects: Parent, child, and adult. Hopefully we aspire to be the "adult." But if I need a parental consultation for my child-persona, I'm sure I will be provided with one.

 

[RogerWaters]

I've discovered, that many members here have 'politicized' modern music.

It has never been my intention to consciously "politicize" modern music, but apparently those who already have will say otherwise. It seems that a political undercurrent has been uncovered. Some members probably knew this all along.

The question arises: is the dialogue of "traditional forms of art and music vs. modern art" political by nature, since it is perceived by some as being liberal, leftist, Marxist, non-traditional, and even destructive of tradition?

Is this an attitude of those traditionalists who feel their tradition is being threatened?

Does "modernism" equate to "liberalism?"

Will we ever be able to discuss such a thing without it having political resonances, intended or not?

Since WHAT is perceived by some as being liberal... modern music or the discussion of traditional vs modern music?

And why would modernism equate to liberalism, according to traditionalists? More likely, they would equate modernism with something more radical than liberalism! Liberalism (free speech, markets, conscience) is conservative, these days. When it was radical, Beethoven was writing his early string quartets.

 

[science]

Is anything human not political?

 

[RogerWaters]

Is anything human not political?

Define 'political'

 

[millionrainbows]

Since WHAT is perceived by some as being liberal... modern music or the discussion of traditional vs modern music?

And why would modernism equate to liberalism, according to traditionalists? More likely, they would equate modernism with something more radical than liberalism! Liberalism (free speech, markets, conscience) is conservative, these days. When it was radical, Beethoven was writing his early string quartets.

I don't know; ask Ligeti. "Liberalism" as I'm using it is a convenient term, used to contrast with "conservative." But you knew that.

As to the rest of it, I'm just making an observation about this forum. There are a lot of conservatives here, who relate only to their brand of classical music, and reject modern music because it's too "liberal." I didn't realize how widespread this attitude is, and never made the explicit connection with politics...until lately.

This makes me realize how fruitless is is to engage in dialogue with them. They can never be "converted" or even expected to be tolerant of modern music and its fans. We are "the enemy."

 

[millionrainbows]

Define 'political'

Define 'political' members, by name.

 

[mmsbls]

...As to the rest of it, I'm just making an observation about this forum. There are a lot of conservatives here, who relate only to their brand of classical music, and reject modern music because it's too "liberal." I didn't realize how widespread this attitude is, and never made the explicit connection with politics...until lately.

This makes me realize how fruitless is is to engage in dialogue with them. They can never be "converted" or even expected to be tolerant of modern music and its fans. We are "the enemy."

I certainly have not read every post that rejects modern music, but I always thought people rejected modern music because they didn't enjoy it. In fact, everyone I personally know who enjoys modern music started off disliking most of it. That includes myself.

I often enter threads discussing modern music to let others know that one can hate the music and wonder why anyone would ever write something so awful but later learn to love it. I doubt I've influenced many to modify their views, but if even one person was motivated by my path (and others), that would be worth my posting.

 

[Coach G]

"Is Modern Art Political?"

I don't know if modern art in and of itself is political, but I think I read or saw on TV somewhere that psychological research shows that people who like modern or abstract art tend to be more politically liberal, and those who don't like it tend to be more politically conservative. I'm very interested in brain biology and how brain biology can explain lots of ways of thinking and behaving, and brain biology is affected by the environment. In other words: are our brains wired one way or another that would make us interpret politics, as well as art, along lines that correlate.

On political issues, foreign, economic, and domestic, I'm fairly pragmatic and centrist, and I think it's good to take good ideas from the Right, as well as from the Left; that said, I lean slightly towards the Left.

I also like paintings that are fairly abstract-to a degree, so Picasso is about as far as I go; as long as there's a recognizable image there, even a distorted one. Anything that is so abstract that it's down to lines and colors I'm willing to enjoy at an art museum or in a book on art history, but I wouldn't want a reproduction for my house. With classical music, I can go to the extremes, though, and I have many CDs by the likes of Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Messiaen, Cage, Xenakis, Boulez, etc.

It would be interesting if people could volunteer their political leanings along with their tastes in abstract art/music so we could determine if a correlation exists.

 

[Gargamel]

Adolf Loos. Staunch opponent of "multiculturalism", who launched tirades against indigenous "savages" which he considered culturally inferior and "degenerate", as opposed to german cultural superiority.

Anton Webern, whose patrionism "led him to endorse the Nazi regime in a series of letters to Joseph Hueber, who was serving in the army and himself held such views. Webern described Hitler on 2 May 1940, as "this unique man" who created "the new state" of Germany." Louis Krasner was "particularly troubled by a 1936 conversation with Webern about the Jews, in which Webern expressed his vague but unambiguously anti-Semitic opinion that "Even Schoenberg, had he not been a Jew, would have been quite different!"