[hammeredklavier]

Redirect Notice

"If the project is realized, it will be revolutionary: a longstanding boycott will be broken, and the avoidance of public performances of works by Richard Wagner in Israel will come to an end."

 

[FrankE]

This happens every few years and ends in cancellation or in-performance protests.
I do hope it goes ahead.

 

[allaroundmusicenthusiast]

Hasn't Barenboim already performed some Wagner in Israel? Anyways, hope it goes ahead. But Israel isn't going in the right direction unfortunately and I don't think anything good will come from this, really pains me as a jewish person -tho I'll always be a supporter of the State of Israel.

 

[Couchie]

As can be expected, the irony is lost on those Jews who advocate cultural policing and germanophobia while residing in one of the present-day world's most notorious states accused of committing apartheid.

Meyerbeer's work has had endless decades to recover the "glory" it enjoyed before Wagner "trashed" it. It's been performed now and then, and people still don't really care for it, for many of the same reasons Wagner didn't.

Just like the High Baroque before it, Grand Opera was a queer phenomenon enjoyed for a time by a few well-to-do Frenchmen with questionable taste. Meyerbeer wrote for them and their paychecks. Wagner wrote for greater humanity.

 

[Kreisler jr]

Hasn't Barenboim already performed some Wagner in Israel?

I also was pretty sure he had. The "ban" is unofficial and has probably been "defied" several times, but not always with a lot of public attention, I think.

 

[marlow]

Hasn't Barenboim already performed some Wagner in Israel?

Of course! Barenboim always knows what is good for other people whether they want it or not!

 

[Noah44]

No Israeli real Musician bans Wagner, nor Richard Strauss (he is in the same boat LOL).
Yet, some music might evoke bad memories in some people, including myself.
For example, I am uncomfortable listening (or playing) Haydn's "Kaiser" quartet.
The 2nd movement was used as the Nazi Germany Hymn.
It affects me even though I did not experience the Holocaust.

An extreme occurrence in Israel happened when Heifetz planned to play a Richard Strauss Sonata.
Somebody attacked him and tried to break his arm...

The Nazis banned all Jewish descendant composers. Even Mahler (Bruckner was safe).
Even after WWII, the younger musicians did not know Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto...

 

[marlow]

As can be expected, the irony is lost on those Jews who advocate cultural policing and germanophobia while residing in one of the present-day world's most notorious states accused of committing apartheid.

Meyerbeer's work has had endless decades to recover the "glory" it enjoyed before Wagner "trashed" it. It's been performed now and then, and people still don't really care for it, for many of the same reasons Wagner didn't.

Just like the High Baroque before it, Grand Opera was a queer phenomenon enjoyed for a time by a few well-to-do Frenchmen with questionable taste. Meyerbeer wrote for them and their paychecks. Wagner wrote for greater humanity.

so he wrote for greater humanity? What are the tickets at Bayreuth are only available to a privileged clique? Frankly if we believe that ‘greater humanity’ is interested in Wagner beyond perhaps the ride of the Valkyries it shows how little we are in touch with greater humanity.

 

[Enthusiast]

^ True enough (and for all CM to be frank) but there are those who are far from privileged but know and love Wagner (and/or other CM). It is a shame that they can't afford the tickets. It's a shame that I can't!

 

[Andrew Kenneth]

Bayreuth tickets range from 10 euro (cheapest seats) up to 433 euro (most expensive).

overview => https://www.bayreuther-festspiele.d...2/bayreuther-festspiele-sitzplan-2022_web.pdf

If 10 euro is also too steep; there's the free Bayreuth Open Air Festival.
"For the first time, anyone interested will have the opportunity to experience musical events with Bayreuth Festival performers in a summery, informal picnic atmosphere. Although Richard Wagner’s oeuvre forms the anchor point in terms of content, it should be possible to interpret it in a deliberately cross-cast and cross-genre manner in order to promote the importance of different perspectives and approaches to the same themes in the long term. This unconventional approach is also reflected in the otherwise untypical festival programme: Bayreuth Festival without dress code, without conventional seating, without admission charge."
=> Festival Open Air - Bayreuther Festspiele

 

[FrankE]

so he wrote for greater humanity? What are the tickets at Bayreuth are only available to a privileged clique? Frankly if we believe that ‘greater humanity’ is interested in Wagner beyond perhaps the ride of the Valkyries it shows how little we are in touch with greater humanity.

I've been to Bayreuth and I'm hardly in a privileged clique. Der Richard-Wagner-Festspielhaus by virtue of its size can only seat so many and with a short season high demand for seats means getting tickets can be competitive. The tickets weren't dear even by my humble standards but I was living in Germany at the time so travel and accommodation costs didn't hurt my wallet so hard..

 

[FrankE]

Hasn't Barenboim already performed some Wagner in Israel? Anyways, hope it goes ahead. But Israel isn't going in the right direction unfortunately and I don't think anything good will come from this, really pains me as a jewish person -tho I'll always be a supporter of the State of Israel.

I recall a Wagner concert being interrupted, people shouting and Purim rattles.

From what I recall of what WW said of Meyerbeer he wasn't wrong but extrapolating to a broader generalisation wasn't right.
It's fair to question whether an adherent of a religion should take part in music of another religion, particularly in one whose scriptures state it is there to negate the other. Whether it's liturgical or art music it's written to elevate a deity, deities or idols. Sounds like avodah zara to me.

What direction? Israel has always had a problem like that since re-establishment, even in Eretz Yisroel before - with the kibbutzim, moshavim, the histradut and labour sectors. It runs through industry, music, the arts and sport (hapoel).

 

[Couchie]

so he wrote for greater humanity? What are the tickets at Bayreuth are only available to a privileged clique? Frankly if we believe that ‘greater humanity’ is interested in Wagner beyond perhaps the ride of the Valkyries it shows how little we are in touch with greater humanity.

Bayreuth ticket costs are WAY below their market value and subsidized I believe by the government. There is a 10+ year wait list to get tickets, demand is such that if they were interested in profit they could massively jack up the cost of tickets into the thousands of Euros. The real barrier is the cost of travel to and accommodations for a week in Germany, which I suppose can't be helped. I went in 2014 and I am very middle class.

 

[marlow]

Bayreuth ticket costs are WAY below their market value and subsidized I believe by the government. There is a 10+ year wait list to get tickets, demand is such that if they were interested in profit they could massively jack up the cost of tickets into the thousands of Euros. The real barrier is the cost of travel to and accommodations for a week in Germany, which I suppose can't be helped. I went in 2014 and I am very middle class.

just makes my point then. Opera is for the elite few and always has been. Actually I think Verdi made far more of an impact in Italy than Wagner ever made in Germany among ordinary people. ‘Viva-Verdi‘ and his music became synonymous with nationalism.

 

[Couchie]

just makes my point then. Opera is for the elite few and always has been. Actually I think Verdi made far more of an impact in Italy than Wagner ever made in Germany among ordinary people. ‘Viva-Verdi‘ and his music became synonymous with nationalism.

Well we can look today at what is "popular" music and the fruit it bears pandering to the lowest common denominator (Cardi B singing about her "wet *** pussy?"), perhaps music catering to the "elite few" ought to be celebrated? The masses simply lack good taste, and they likely can't be helped. The bee does not waste time explaining to the fly why honey is better than excrement.

 

[Ludwig Schon]

The ignorant masses deserve nothing but contempt… They are omnipotent, omnipresent and while they know the price of everything, they know the value of nothing…

I should say that this has nothing to do with ‘class’. Jacob Rees-Mogg is as much of a spiv as Arthur Daley was. The hyphen between his surnames is a tell tale sign of innate, lower breeding. His cockney grandfather sold knock-off motors in the East End… Dell Boy Trotter, eat your heart out…

 

[marlow]

Well we can look today at what is "popular" music and the fruit it bears pandering to the lowest common denominator (Cardi B singing about her "wet * ***?"), perhaps music catering to the "elite few" ought to be celebrated? The masses simply lack good taste, and they likely can't be helped. The bee does not waste time explaining to the fly why honey is better than excrement.

You jean like Caruso who had a repertoire of some 521 songs, ranging from classical to traditional Italian folk songs and popular songs of the day. The most often purchased songs by Caruso today are the Neapolitan sailor's song, "Santa Lucia," and the universally famous song, "'O Sole Mio.". Shame on the guy catering for the unwashed masses!

And even dear old Melchior got I on the act!

 

[59540]

just makes my point then. Opera is for the elite few and always has been. Actually I think Verdi made far more of an impact in Italy than Wagner ever made in Germany among ordinary people. ‘Viva-Verdi‘ and his music became synonymous with nationalism.

That because the name "Verdi" was used as an acronym for "Vittorio Emanuele Re d'Italia". It was camouflaged anti-Austrian subversion.

 

[fbjim]

Italian nationalism of that period is also a much different can of worms than 20th century nationalism (Italy and otherwise).

 

[marlow]

That because the name "Verdi" was used as an acronym for "Vittorio Emanuele Re d'Italia". It was camouflaged anti-Austrian subversion.

don’t forget his tunes were also whistled in the streets and played on barrel organs. He was an absolute national hero. When he died thousands upon thousands attended his funeral even though he had specified ‘one cross, one candle, one priest’