The problem with these allegiations is that one does not know whom to trust. On one hand, there are sexual predators that are repulsive, on the other hand, there are people trying to get their 5 minutes of fame or extract some money from accusing a celebrity. The American sexual morale is also a little hysterical, unable to differentiate between relatively harmless behavior (which might be inapropriate) on one hand and dangerous things like rape, lumping all of it under the "sexual harassment" label. If Levine really did destroy careers and was a sexual predator, then I agree he should be shuned.
James Levine deserves Talk Classical's Opprobrium, NOT Adoration
All of you crowing about Levine's artistic greatness should just be honest and post this disclaimer with all of your tributes and top-ten lists:
"I, hypocritical Talk Classical poster, hereby state that I am crowing about James Levine right now because I don't give a FLYING FART IN THE WIND about all of the dozens of young men, whose lives and careers were destroyed as teenagers by James Levine's relentless acts of sexual predation, because he was "such a great artist." It's fine for empowered and privileged men (as long as they're white and wealthy) to use young people as sexual consumables-to be discarded after use-free from consequences. Don't ask, don't tell."
Levine's reign as a top-tier sexual predator of teen-aged boys was an "open secret" for years and years, widely rumored about but also widely known to be true. Yes, it took the #metoo era for the media and wider public to finally, after decades, take the allegations seriously. But it happened, make no mistake. The allegations have the truth backing them. The denials are denials of the truth.
But as usual, the white knights come charging in with their "I don't want to hear about this" and "eww this isn't the National Enquirer" and "eww this is icky but Jimmy made the Met so great" and turn a blind eye to that which is very well-known all through the world of professional classical music:
James Levine was a sexual predator.
We know exactly how institutions such as the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts and James Levine get away with these crimes. It's happening again, all over again, just the same, right here on Talk Classical.
For shame.
"I, hypocritical Talk Classical poster, hereby state that I am crowing about James Levine right now because I don't give a FLYING FART IN THE WIND about all of the dozens of young men, whose lives and careers were destroyed as teenagers by James Levine's relentless acts of sexual predation, because he was "such a great artist." It's fine for empowered and privileged men (as long as they're white and wealthy) to use young people as sexual consumables-to be discarded after use-free from consequences. Don't ask, don't tell."
Levine's reign as a top-tier sexual predator of teen-aged boys was an "open secret" for years and years, widely rumored about but also widely known to be true. Yes, it took the #metoo era for the media and wider public to finally, after decades, take the allegations seriously. But it happened, make no mistake. The allegations have the truth backing them. The denials are denials of the truth.
But as usual, the white knights come charging in with their "I don't want to hear about this" and "eww this isn't the National Enquirer" and "eww this is icky but Jimmy made the Met so great" and turn a blind eye to that which is very well-known all through the world of professional classical music:
James Levine was a sexual predator.
We know exactly how institutions such as the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts and James Levine get away with these crimes. It's happening again, all over again, just the same, right here on Talk Classical.
For shame.
1 - 20 of 159 Posts
How many people here have any stake in this beyond armchair moralizing? The world already found out a few years ago that he abused his powers. And why was it an open secret for so long? You're a member of the professional classical music world. Don't beat up on a bunch of classical music listeners who were kept in the dark for decades by those in the business. And who don't want to go stomping in the mud after Levine's death. Hold your own accountable.
Since an earlier thread on this topic has apparently been shut down, it's likely this will be as well. If you have a comment to add, better do it quickly.
most people are sheep and are scared. The situation is similar in academia. I can't tell you how many narcissistic sociopaths I met in academia among the professors. These people have too much power, they have the ability to make or break your career, and they are almost unassailable. If you complain about their abuses and misbehavior, the academia will close ranks, and the accuser will get punished. It is probably similar in these orchestras.How many people here have any stake in this beyond armchair moralizing? The world already found out a few years ago that he abused his powers. And why was it an open secret for so long? You're a member of the professional classical music world. Don't beat up on a bunch of classical music listeners who were kept in the dark for decades by those in the business. And who don't want to go stomping in the mud after Levine's death. Hold your own accountable.
Yeah. I don't know why the last one vanished. When I last looked at it it was being quite well-behaved, given the topic. But perhaps it went AWOL when I wasn't looking.Since an earlier thread on this topic has apparently been shut down, it's likely this will be as well. If you have a comment to add, better do it quickly.
It should be back, forgot to toggle something after editing it.Yeah. I don't know why the last one vanished. When I last looked at it it was being quite well-behaved, given the topic. But perhaps it went AWOL when I wasn't looking.
Moderators had deleted some of the posts--including one of my own, which corrected misinformation about the nature of the allegations against Levine. Then the thread as a whole vanished.Yeah. I don't know why the last one vanished. When I last looked at it it was being quite well-behaved, given the topic. But perhaps it went AWOL when I wasn't looking.
For the record, I consider Mr. Levine's conducting largely uninspired and boring.
Once that is said, why should be incompatible that he was a great conductor, even the greatest conductor in the world, *and* a sexual predator?.
He could be these two things, and many things more. It's human nature.
About the sexual predator part, this is something that he should be accountable before a court of justice. Like any other citizen. And during the trial, it would be immaterial the quality of his conducting. In the same way, the fact that he is a sexual predator, it's irrelevant for the quality of his conducting.
Once that is said, why should be incompatible that he was a great conductor, even the greatest conductor in the world, *and* a sexual predator?.
He could be these two things, and many things more. It's human nature.
About the sexual predator part, this is something that he should be accountable before a court of justice. Like any other citizen. And during the trial, it would be immaterial the quality of his conducting. In the same way, the fact that he is a sexual predator, it's irrelevant for the quality of his conducting.
I don't know what Levine got up to. Let's assume he was indeed a dangerous and amoral sexual predator.
What might prompt someone, though, not immediately to accept that he was?
- People do make false allegations sometimes.
- In the UK, at least, the police were instructed to believe allegations, rather than to take them seriously and investigate.
- There are clear examples of the police seeking to publicise names of the accused, knowing that this will prompt others to come forward (if the accused is famous), and if enough come forward then there will be similarity in the stories of some of them. Focus purely on those and you will appear to have a pattern of offending which might convince a jury. This will be helped if you can put a bit of detail in the information you publicise.
Who are the victims of this?
- People who are accused and their names dragged through the mud when they were innocent
- People who were victims, and they are not believed, because other examples become known where false accusations were believed.
Who benefit?
- People who are offenders, and get away with it, because victims are not believed
- Activists who want it to appear that the world is full of horrible people, if that suits their cause.
Who is to blame for that?
- People who argue that you should just believe accusations, rather than investigate them fairly, because they are the ones who bring the investigative system into disrepute.
It's a sad world.
What might prompt someone, though, not immediately to accept that he was?
- People do make false allegations sometimes.
- In the UK, at least, the police were instructed to believe allegations, rather than to take them seriously and investigate.
- There are clear examples of the police seeking to publicise names of the accused, knowing that this will prompt others to come forward (if the accused is famous), and if enough come forward then there will be similarity in the stories of some of them. Focus purely on those and you will appear to have a pattern of offending which might convince a jury. This will be helped if you can put a bit of detail in the information you publicise.
Who are the victims of this?
- People who are accused and their names dragged through the mud when they were innocent
- People who were victims, and they are not believed, because other examples become known where false accusations were believed.
Who benefit?
- People who are offenders, and get away with it, because victims are not believed
- Activists who want it to appear that the world is full of horrible people, if that suits their cause.
Who is to blame for that?
- People who argue that you should just believe accusations, rather than investigate them fairly, because they are the ones who bring the investigative system into disrepute.
It's a sad world.
OK. No problem.It should be back, forgot to toggle something after editing it.
You do you, and try not to impose your views on what others should do. I will continue to listen to his recordings because at the end of the day, the only one that suffers from not being able to enjoy his art is me and no one is the worse for it. I sincerely doubt that the few fractions of cents that he gets from my spotify streaming make any difference now, if they ever did. And also, even if he was benefiting from that, perhaps the people that control his estate now could set up a fund to help victims of abuse. There's also this thing called the death of the author you know, so I'm not enjoying his life, I'm not savoring the horror he put those young men through, I'm just listening to his music (which is not even his btw). It's devastating what he did, and perhaps justice wasn't made (because everywhere on earth judges are corrupt or inept or, simply, arbitrary due to the nature of law), but in the end, what does that have to do with us the listeners?
“The first rule about James Levine is you don't talk about James Levine.” “The second rule about James Levine is you don't talk about James Levine.” 
The ones primarily at fault if your allegations are to be believed, are his peers in the professional classical music community. Why blame TC? If Levine's peers let him get away with this behavior for decades, how can members of an anonymous Internet forum be more accountable?All of you crowing about Levine's artistic greatness should just be honest and post this disclaimer with all of your tributes and top-ten lists:
"I, hypocritical Talk Classical poster, hereby state that I am crowing about James Levine right now because I don't give a FLYING FART IN THE WIND about all of the dozens of young men, whose lives and careers were destroyed as teenagers by James Levine's relentless acts of sexual predation, because he was "such a great artist." It's fine for empowered and privileged men (as long as they're white and wealthy) to use young people as sexual consumables-to be discarded after use-free from consequences. Don't ask, don't tell."
Levine's reign as a top-tier sexual predator of teen-aged boys was an "open secret" for years and years, widely rumored about but also widely known to be true. Yes, it took the #metoo era for the media and wider public to finally, after decades, take the allegations seriously. But it happened, make no mistake. The allegations have the truth backing them. The denials are denials of the truth.
But as usual, the white knights come charging in with their "I don't want to hear about this" and "eww this isn't the National Enquirer" and "eww this is icky but Jimmy made the Met so great" and turn a blind eye to that which is very well-known all through the world of professional classical music:
James Levine was a sexual predator.
We know exactly how institutions such as the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts and James Levine get away with these crimes. It's happening again, all over again, just the same, right here on Talk Classical.
For shame.
While in no way condoning what Levine did, I have some sympathy for the guy. He grew up at a time when being a gay man was still somewhat taboo. To protect his image and dreams he had to suppress this part of him. Can you imagine the internal torture of having to live like that? He wasn't alone: there were plenty of actors, politicians, religious leaders and other public figures who led secret lives not because they wanted to, but because they had to. I'm no psychologist but I've read enough to know that living like that has got to screw with your brain. Before anyone castigates Levine maybe the Biblical injunction of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" should give us pause. And keep in mind that there are many other famous people who have done some really bad things yet they either get a pass or even joke about it. James Levine was a flawed man, as we all are. I just find it deeply sad to think that a man as talented as he would spend his time lurking about in public parks at night looking for a gay hookup. Maybe if society were more tolerant, accepting and open he wouldn't have to live that way.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall that you exhibited the same level of moral outrage while Levine was alive, and theoretically able to respond. Now that he's dead, such a diatribe amounts to little more than performative virtue-signaling, a way to demonstrate your moral superiority.(post snipped)
[/B]
Whether or not I think that Levine was a manipulative, exploitative shmuck or not is immaterial. I won't go as far as to say "De mortuis nihil nisi bonum", but if you have evidence proving any of it, you should have said so when he was still around. If you have such evidence, and didn't share it with the appropriate authorities, then you're responsible for that behavior.
This is so hard. I totally get you Knorfy and you're right. I enjoyed many of his recordings over the years (unfortunately he made some crackers) and I only found out about his seedy activities when the allegations came to light and he was suspended from the Met. I really had no idea about this as it was hidden from the public and I'm not in the know with orchestral gossip. I've been playing his Brahms, Mahler and Schumann cycles for years (plus some others) and have loved the wonderful orchestral playing on those recordings. Churlishly, I could say I've bought all my Levine recordings secondhand so at least say I haven't contributed directly to him but that's really not important. So what do I do with my cherished recordings that he was a part of? Do I bin them? Never play them again? There have been accusations, suspensions and even sackings of orchestral members over the years who have played on recordings I have loved. Should I not play them either? Should I not play any of my Dutoit recordings considering accusations made about him? It's so difficult and I understand why some don't want anything to do with the music he was part of. However part of me thinks that he was just that - a part of that music. He didn't write it, or sing it, play it (he was no Gary Glitter, Michael Jackson). He was the name on the cover and the leader of a huge team who produced an amazing sound. I'm not trying to condone what he did but when I listen to those recordings I'm thinking of the beauty of the sound, not him at all like if I'm listening to Stan the Man's, Bruckner (I'm admiring the music not the man). I have contributed to the Levine recordings thread with a degree of reluctance, with a disclaimer and said similar on that thread. I hope what I've said has not sounded superficial and I'm not trivialising this topic, by any means. If this post sounds confused then it's because I understand what the OP and subsequent posters are saying and it's an uncomfortable decision. For now I'll continue to play these recordings as I have always done and doubt that will change, for now, but I do so with reservations. Perhaps I shouldn't have posted on the Levine thread in hindsight but it's done now. I have to live with myself. I think it's down to others to make the same decision.
I don't recall seeing any post where anyone (including myself) condoned Levine's alleged improper conduct, so I would appreciate not using this public forum to talk down to its members.
CTRL-C
Works of art are not the same as the people who produce them.
CTRL-V
Works of art are not the same as the people who produce them.
CTRL-V
Is it just me, but (for example) I have a nice collection of Scarlatti sonatas by Pletnev, and various other bits and bobs. (I have little Levine.) I am happy still to play it.
I acquired this before I was aware of any taint.
I wouldn't buy any Pletnev recordings currently, as he may benefit and he has a cloud over him. Is this fair? I don't know, but I don't want to risk providing money to him, in case. I also don't have time to explore the rights and wrongs.
If he was dead, I wouldn't have any problem with buying his recordings again.
I acquired this before I was aware of any taint.
I wouldn't buy any Pletnev recordings currently, as he may benefit and he has a cloud over him. Is this fair? I don't know, but I don't want to risk providing money to him, in case. I also don't have time to explore the rights and wrongs.
If he was dead, I wouldn't have any problem with buying his recordings again.
1 - 20 of 159 Posts
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