James Levine deserves Talk Classical's Opprobrium, NOT Adoration

Levine's actions where obviously related to the music he made. A part of his grooming was claiming that if young musicians had sex with him, they'd improve their playing. The orchestras he conducted were stacked with people who he'd mentored, which means that at least to some extent, the Levine sound was a product of this sort of recruiting method.

Of course, nepotism was a normal part of recruitment, particularly until the widespread use of blind auditions. What Levine did went beyond something like simply hiring your friends. It also gives a hint as to why his behaviour was ignored for so long. Too many people were in the web he'd weaved, and it wasn't in their interest to rock the boat, even if they had qualms about his actions.

It could be that Levine's recordings won't go down as his strongest legacy. He provides a definition of what it is to abuse trust as a mentor and colleague for fellow musicians.

He got off pretty lightly. He was spared a prison term which would have been hard to take in his condition. The organisations he'd worked at for decades set him aside in a way to make sure the mud wouldn't stick. Quite a clever, and self preserving, strategy on their part.

Sid James said:

Levine's actions were obviously related to the music he made...the Levine sound was a product of this sort of recruiting method.

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I'm having trouble following the logic here. For years I listened to Levine's recordings being blissfully ignorant of who he was and what crimes he did. It wasn't until AFTER the news came out regarding Levine's offenses that I began to associate the recordings with what he did. But that had nothing to do with the music (which is still the same), as much as it is a case of classical conditioning. There are other conductors whose music never bothered me until AFTER I learned one was once a member of the Nazi party, and another was found out to have sexually harassed women. But none of this has anything to do with the music. Being a person of good character isn't a requirement to making good music. Moreover, who except for someone with a very discerning ear can even identify which conductor is which in a blindfold test? At best you might say "It sounds like it could be Karajan", or "It sounds like it could be Dutoit", or "It sounds like it could be Levine." So then do you say, now let me listen closely for the element in the dynamics and texture that tells me if it's the Nazi, the wolf/skirt-chaser, or the serial sex offender"?

Here in the USA we have TWO former living presidents (one belonging to each major party) who repeatedly demonstrated a pattern of being a sexual predator against women, and both were supported an defended by the bulk of their own political party even AFTER what happened was well known.

If it makes you feel good to throw your Levine CDs in the trash, then do it; but, again, the problem is in the SYSTEM, and whether it's the Metropolitan Opera, the US Government, or the Catholic Church, while I find the offenders to be sick and disgusting people, I don't even blame them as much as I blame the ones who ignored it, down-played it, or covered it up, because they KNEW the behavior was wrong and they let it go on because they were afraid to blow the whistle or go against their own self-interest.

Coach G said:

I'm having trouble following the logic here. For years I listened to Levine's recordings being blissfully ignorant of who he was and what crimes he did. It wasn't until AFTER the news came out regarding Levine's offenses that I began to associate the recordings with what he did. But that had nothing to do with the music (which is still the same), as much as it is a case of classical conditioning. There are other conductors whose music never bothered me until AFTER I learned one was once a member of the Nazi party, and another was found out to have sexually harassed women. But none of this has anything to do with the music. Being a person of good character isn't a requirement to making good music. Moreover, who except for someone with a very discerning ear can even identify which conductor is which in a blindfold test? At best you might say "It sounds like it could be Karajan", or "It sounds like it could be Dutoit", or "It sounds like it could be Levine." So then do you say, now let me listen closely for the element in the dynamics and texture that tells me if it's the Nazi, the wolf/skirt-chaser, or the serial sex offender"?

Here in the USA we have TWO former living presidents (one belonging to each major party) who repeatedly demonstrated a pattern of being a sexual predator against women, and both were supported an defended by the bulk of their own political party even AFTER what happened was well known.

If it makes you feel good to throw your Levine CDs in the trash, then do it; but, again, the problem is in the SYSTEM, and whether it's the Metropolitan Opera, the US Government, or the Catholic Church, while I find the offenders to be sick and disgusting people, I don't even blame them as much as I blame the ones who ignored it, down-played it, or covered it up, because they KNEW the behavior was wrong and they let it go on because they were afraid to blow the whistle or go against their own self-interest.

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From my first post here, I've never said that people should get rid of their recordings (link below). Anyhow, I think that this case goes beyond recordings to more significant matters. Levine is dead, he's no longer profiting from royalties.

It goes to the heart of what is the essence of music making, which is about people working together. For Levine, music was about manipulation of power. His behaviour had a direct impact on how he did his job. He corrupted his teaching duties and influenced the hiring practices of orchestras he conducted.

I guess with your logic, short of having sex on stage, Levine could do no wrong (he did it in places nearby though, like dressing rooms). The way he groomed people suggests it enhanced his work in a perverse way. It was certainly inextricable from it.

Of course, the nature of these abuses are that they are kept behind closed doors, and anyone who knows about them waves them off as some sort of eccentric behaviour, or make some weak argument about putting a dividing line between what goes onstage and off. This was the old school approach (same goes with elite athletes) and it was wrong because it let management off the hook and condoned the worst actions of employees. It also normalised toxic and unsafe workplaces.

It's obvious that organisations like the Met wanted to avoid bad publicity, simultaneously protecting Levine and themselves. Their emphasis that this couldn't happen under current policies shows the real significance of cases like this. Employees have an obligation to discharge their duties with respect for others, and employers need to ensure workplaces are safe.

Young people should in no way be forced to put up with sexual abuse if they want to study music or play in an orchestra. If you had a son or daughter in that sort of situation, would you want them anywhere near someone like Levine? Was he fit to be in that sort of position of responsibility? This is why we have criminal record checks now for jobs of this nature.

It's natural for the public to want some sort of justice in cases like this. I can understand why some people made angry comments to the effect that Rolf Harris' death was a good thing. Levine didn't get that sort of attention because he wasn't as famous. At the same time, its really important that the allegations are investigated with respect for the rights of both victims and those of the alleged abusers.

Coach G said:

Apart from the above excerpt from your latest post, I agree with everything you said, but I didn't say that "Levine could do no wrong". In fact, I identified him as a predator and a sex offender, called it sick and disgusting, and I indicated more than once the problem is systemic, as you have done. That you can somehow "hear" it in the music is what I don't get, because when driving in my car and when tuning into to our local classical radio and a symphony, half way through, I can hardly ever discern who the conductor is in the first place: Maybe it's this one, or maybe it's that one, definitely not that one, most likely this one or that one, not sure but I like it, or not sure but I dislike it. If you can tell who's who every time and furthermore also know who's the psychopath or the predator, then you've got better listening skills than I do.

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Having failed to apply a slippery slope argument to what I said before (advocation of trashing Levine's records), you've now gone on to apply reductio ad absurdum to the conclusions I've drawn about Levine's working methods.

As I indicated, we don't agree about what is the essential takeaway of the Levine case. I think that the man can't be separated from his music, because the nature of his abuse went far beyond other cases were it's easier to draw a line between a musician's actions within and outside his work.

To repeat, I don't think the strongest part of his legacy is whatever good he did. The value is in the example he provides, as a case study of how this sort of manipulation of music shouldn't be allowed to happen.

I know this is the internet, but given the seriousness of this topic, I think it's enough to simply let others express their opinions. I haven't contributed to this topic to convince others, let alone to make jokes or play the usual games. I'd like you to think about that.