Report from ClassicFM

https://www.classicfm.com/composers/williams/most-performed-living-composer-2023/

https://bachtrack.com/classical-music-statistics-2023

Thanks , the Bachtrack report is very interesting.
The Classic FM article mentions that Renaud and Gautier Capucon .
In a recent discussion on TC on top violinist today 5 Greatest Violinist of the first quarter of the 21st Century about 30 or 40 names were suggested by different members but Renaud Capucon was not mentioned. How do you rate him?

I also found The Great Violinist - a TC game from last April where Renaud came in the bottom half of one of the semi finals. However I see that Joshua Bell got ' nul points' in this semi final and he was rated 3rd in the American Songwriter artilcle that preempted the discussion 5 Greatest Violinist of the first quarter of the 21st Century.

 

This isn't surprising. I heard Williams' scores at halftime of football games last fall performed by marching bands.

 

Not Paul McCartney? Taylor Swift?

 

I know, I'm shocked as well 😨

 

I wonder how many major classical composers were the top performed in at least one year in their lifetime. Haendel, Haydn, Rossini, Verdi, Rachmaninoff, Stravinsky?

 

I'm guessing Rossini was one of the biggest stars in his day of composers we consider among the greatest composers today. Bachtrack ranks Rossini at no. 6 among opera composers though none of his operas make the top ten. That may be because his overtures are much more popular today than his operas as a whole. Beethoven lived long enough to resent Rossini's success, much as the young Wagner resented Meyerbeer's success.

As for the others you list, Handel and Haydn lived in an era where support came mainly from the aristocrats, the wealthy and the church, Verdi probably was the biggest name in opera after Rossini, successful enough in his time but not quite the smash hit Rossini was, and Rachmaninoff and Stravinsky struggled. Rach came from a wealthy Russian family, lost everything in the revolution, and restored his fortune by becoming a star concertizing pianist after the age of 40 and being a savvy investor. Stravinsky had some popularity with his three Diaghilev ballets but became almost destitute after that and turned to conducting and recording his own work, also after the age of 40, with some success but never became a major star as a conductor.

In contrast, Rossini made so much money with his operas, especially his last one, William Tell, that he was able to retire at 40. Basically, it seems Rossini was able to capitalize on his early popularity, churning out a huge number of rather formulaic operas in his early years, then followed the money from Naples to Vienna (where Beethoven was not impressed) and finally to Paris, reusing music and cutting corners, but finally working hard on one last extravaganza, William Tell. Then he retired just as musical fashions and tastes were changing. Most of his operas are seldom performed today, other than the overtures. The three most often performed are The Barber of Seville (especially), Cinderella and The Italian Girl in Algiers. But many of his overtures are hugely popular classical hits today, from those operas and also from The Thieving Magpie, The Silken Ladder, William Tell, Semiramide, Tancredi, and others. IMO, his overtures are what keep him on the "greatest clssical composer" lists today.

 

the young Wagner resented Meyerbeer's success.

Strangely, he didn't feel the same way towards Halevy's, although he was also a Jew. Wagner and Mahler is known to have admired his music.

I wonder how many major classical composers were the top performed in at least one year in their lifetime. Haendel, Haydn, Rossini, Verdi, Rachmaninoff, Stravinsky?

It would have depended on the area and time. Towards the 1790s, Haydn would have been popular in London. Mozart would have been in Prague; Die Zauberflöte was immensely popular in Vienna right after his passing. In Naples and the rest of Europe generally, Paisiello would have been all the rage.

“No composer could at any time have been more universally admired, sought, applauded, and sung in all the nations of Europe, nor have better deserved the distinguished reception his works have everywhere met. ... He has received the homage of his age, and has assured to himself that of posterity.”
This lavish tribute to Giovanni Paisiello was written by none other than Paisiello himself. The venerable Italian composer had been invited by Alexandre Etienne Choron, the Parisian music publisher, to write his own entry for a new Dictionnaire des musiciens (1810-11).

Something I said about his music in another post, btw:

"See how the music "strikes", "retreats", "slithers" as it returns to the initial material and emotionally intensifies and eventually melts into heavenly "soft tenderness" (pay attention to the word painting; try following along with the libretto); the miraculously mercurial vocal writing; one might say this foreshadows the Bel Canto of the later times."

Questo vago Giovinetto Ben vestito, graziosetto In vedermi un di al balcone Nel passar, mi saluto. Io gli dico, padron mio Ei mi guarda; dice, oh Dio! E nel dirlo sospiro. Io pensando ch'abbia male Presta scendo allor le scale, Come vuol! la carita. M'ha pigliata per la mano E mi disse piano piano Certe cose belle, belle; Ah fratello, furon quelle! Certa smania da quell' ora, Certo fuoco mi divora, Che arrabbiare ognor mi fa

The pretty youth, so well dressed and smart; on seeing me one day at the window, bowed as he passed. I said "Your servant, Sir.": he gazed, "Oh Heaven!" said he; and sighed so piteously, that I thought he was ill; and ran down stairs to assist him, as common charity required; he then took hold of my hand, and whispered such soft, such tender things; from that hour, brother, a pleasing pain, a soft fire, consume and make me wretched.

 

The influence of John Williams' music exceeds the audience of typical classical listeners while being clearly classical in its nature. We can be proud of him. He shows how now classical music can be at the top even in today's times.

 

The influence of John Williams' music exceeds the audience of typical classical listeners while being clearly classical in its nature. We can be proud of him. He shows how now classical music can be at the top even in today's times.

Dissecting your comment. I agree the influence (on the mass audience) of John Williams' music exceeds the audience of typical classical listeners. I would say it is Classical in style rather than nature, because by nature, typical Classical music works better than Film music on the Classical audience (there is a poll I created in the Movies subforum, and according to the poll, most voters don't return to much film music). Who is the 'we' in we can be proud of him, when many here don't agree he caters to our expectations? The statement 'He shows how now classical music can be at the top even in today's times' requires clarification. Is it at the top compared to other genres? Is it classical music in the first place? Do Classical music fans really care whether or not Williams is at the top in popularity in any genre if he is?

 

Polls such as this are meaningless IMO. The only time I hear music composed by John Williams is if he wrote the score to a movie I am watching - and I am watching the movie, the music is in the background and sometimes enhances the drama, but can also be distracting and bothersome. I do not consider it remotely classical music, but he is a talented composer who has often written very good orchestral music.

 

Classical music works better than Film music on the Classical audience (there is a poll I created in the Movies subforum, and according to the poll, most voters don't return to much film music)

I can only speak for myself, and I prefer symphonies and other pure musical works. They are more accessible for me, because I don't care for the non-musical stuff most of the time. This effects film music but also opera.

Who is the 'we' in we can be proud of him, when many here don't agree he caters to our expectations?

Many composers do not make everyone happy. Maybe many are not proud of him, but I just say that we can be.

The statement 'He shows how now classical music can be at the top even in today's times' requires clarification. Is it at the top compared to other genres? Is it classical music in the first place? Do Classical music fans really care whether or not Williams is at the top in popularity in any genre if he is?

Classical music lost influence since the 19th century. John Williams is a counterexample. His music is very widely known. It is a comparison to other genres. He shows that new classical music with a solid style and inspiration can still be very successful.

Popularity is somewhat important for music, because the music needs to be played. And it is also beneficial for music to be known, so new listeners can find it easier. Before I listened to classical music I didn't know that it was still composed after like 1890. People without knowledge are somewhat surprised that "New music" even exists. For me it was and still is difficult to find names of 20th century composers and recordings of their music. This is because they are often not known and not recorded. And it is indicative that of all things a film composer is the most played living classical composer. The classical community itself seems to be rather distracted by an experimental fetish and neglects composers like Williams with solid craftsmanship and romantic expression. But that such music can be successful even in the wider public, shows how much potential classical music has.

 

I can only speak for myself, and I prefer symphonies and other pure musical works. They are more accessible for me, because I don't care for the non-musical stuff most of the time. This effects film music but also opera.


Many composers do not make everyone happy. Maybe many are not proud of him, but I just say that we can be.



Classical music lost influence since the 19th century. John Williams is a counterexample. His music is very widely known. It is a comparison to other genres. He shows that new classical music with a solid style and inspiration can still be very successful.

Popularity is somewhat important for music, because the music needs to be played. And it is also beneficial for music to be known, so new listeners can find it easier. Before I listened to classical music I didn't know that it was still composed after like 1890. People without knowledge are somewhat surprised that "New music" even exists. For me it was and still is difficult to find names of 20th century composers and recordings of their music. This is because they are often not known and not recorded. And it is indicative that of all things a film composer is the most played living classical composer. The classical community itself seems to be rather distracted by an experimental fetish and neglects composers like Williams with solid craftsmanship and romantic expression. But that such music can be successful even in the wider public, shows how much potential classical music has.

I get where you're coming from. No argument from me. The thing is I hear more complaints about the unpopularity of contemporary Classical music from those who don't like it, than from those who actually do like it. It seems the Classical community is doing quite all right. Personally I find recordings of 20th century music that I like, no problem. Youtube is also a good avenue to discover music that is not commercially recorded.

When the interest is there, people without knowledge will still find ways to discover new Classical music. If Williams is a gateway composer for them to discover new Classical music, then I guess it's a win-win.

 

The thing is I hear more complaints about the unpopularity of contemporary Classical music from those who don't like it, than from those who actually do like it. It seems the Classical community is doing quite all right.

Contemporary classical music is not one unique thing like 19th century classical music still rather was. I like parts of it. And I am certanly unhappy with the low popularity of some composers, because it means there are very few or inaccessible recordings of their works.

Personally I find recordings of 20th century music that I like, no problem. Youtube is also a good avenue to discover music that is not commercially recorded.

Yes, I also find such recordings, if I didn't I would not know that I was missing something. But when I search for other works of the recorded composers I often find works with no accessible recording.

The problem is that the saturated audience of old composers doesn't care, they want what they already know. The avantgarde intelligentsia also doesn't care. Some individual people care. And as bad as the film buisness might be, they also seem to show some signs of love for good music here and there. That the most performed living classical composer is a film composers is a poverty certificate for the classical community.

 

All too easy to be distracted by ClassicFM's headline.

Much more interesting is looking at the various graphs and lists in the Bachtrack data. For example, get past Williams and see who else is being performed.

1. Williams, John
2. Pärt, Arvo
3. Widmann, Jörg
4. Adès, Thomas
5. Glass, Philip
6. Adams, John
7. Gubaidulina, Sofia
=8 Shaw, Caroline
=8 Chin, Unsuk
10. Clyne, Anna

Also, the graph that shows that Romantic and 20th C are the most performed periods (roughly, overall, and that Classical only gets single figures except in Germany and Austria.

And how about most performed concert works?

1. Rachmaninov, Symphonic Dances
2. Rachmaninov, Piano Concerto no. 3 in D minor
3. Dvořák, Symphony no. 9 in E minor, “From the New World”
4. Rachmaninov, Piano Concerto no. 2 in C minor
=5 Beethoven, Symphony no. 7 in A major
=5 Beethoven, Symphony no. 5 in C minor
7. Brahms, Symphony no. 4 in E minor
8. Beethoven, Symphony no. 3 in E flat major “Eroica”
9. Tchaikovsky, Symphony no. 6 in B minor, “Pathétique”
10. Stravinsky, Le Sacre du printemps

So, nothing by Williams, J!

Oh, and have a care when noting the list of "Top Ten Orchestras" and "Top Ten Conductors" - this refers to the tope ten busiest.

If you missed the link, here it is again: Annual classical music statistics 2023 vx (bachtrack.com)

 

And how about most performed concert works?

1. Rachmaninov, Symphonic Dances
2. Rachmaninov, Piano Concerto no. 3 in D minor
3. Dvořák, Symphony no. 9 in E minor, “From the New World”
4. Rachmaninov, Piano Concerto no. 2 in C minor
=5 Beethoven, Symphony no. 7 in A major
=5 Beethoven, Symphony no. 5 in C minor
7. Brahms, Symphony no. 4 in E minor
8. Beethoven, Symphony no. 3 in E flat major “Eroica”
9. Tchaikovsky, Symphony no. 6 in B minor, “Pathétique”
10. Stravinsky, Le Sacre du printemps

So, nothing by Williams, J!

Nothing by any living composer. Why is there a total disconnection between todays composers and performers? Audiences and composers both have a museum like conception of concerts. What we need are people who want living music instead not just old art or extrentric modern art experiments. Vile bashing of Mr. Williams is inappropriate.

 

If anything those of you wish to insist that JW writes classical music must have an inflated opinion of the label "classical" as opposed to "film" music. Otherwise why make such a big deal of how his music is classified?

Film music can be anything, so it meakes sense to recognize that classical film music is not just film music. In my opinion symphonies for example have a higher standing than film music, because film music is more or less subordinated to a film. But this does not change by calling classical film music classical, and it is not the point.

Nonsense should be recognized as nonsense and people should not have the power to exert nonsense opinions. Here people should not have the power to exert arbitrary restrictions to classical music. It is presumptuous of them and would not stop just at film music. It would be expanded to all tonal music.

Classical Pops concerts have been around for a long time and many symphony orchestras have programmed film music - in order to increase their audience beyond the traditional concert going public.

Not always because of this reason.

Short insertion: The new forum software is terrible, please revert all changes to how it was 5 years ago! It can not be repeated often enough. We do not have to respect nonsense changes!

To answer your question, because contemporary classical music largely doesn’t appeal to classical concert goers and let alone the general public. People do want living music but they find it in other genres, even classical music listeners do. This is not in any way meant to bash contemporary classical music, I’m just saying it like it is

The image of contemporary classical music is inappropriately and unfortunatly shaped by avantgarde music. That is the problem. The classical image is that it is either centuries old or avantgarde, and this is both not attractive for most people for healthy reasons. There is also normal new classical music. The saturated audience doesn't care because they are saturated, and care for the big names too much. And the driving forces or decision makers are a total failiure because they have avantgarde ideology. At places were music has to be new and good (film music) there is some good new classical music (with film music disadvantages of course). And John Williams is one of the best examples. Of course avantgarde ideogist have to find a way to redefine everything to spread their worldview. The elites are broken beyond repair. Things have to collapse before it gets better.

 

Oh no, this thread is becoming another wretched film music vs. classical music debate again. Let's please not go down that route again guys.

 

I didn't suggest that you specifically look down on the Four Seasons. But you think they have a different popularity than symphonies. I wouldn't make popularity such a difficult concept. There are probably less confusing ways to express your thought behind.

Not me to try to nitpick here, but I don't think anyone is making popularity such a difficult concept except here about elitists. I explained my pov in response to Hammeredklavier's accusation about elitists. These are all popular but in different forms. Symphonies and concertos. Nothing difficult about that.

"Elitists" you mean. The same people who and convince and encourage themselves to think that things like Mozart's 40th or Beethoven's 5th (which get billions of views on youtube, spotify, etc), for example, are popular in a different way from the Four Seasons.