[DavidA]

Tristan is one of those operas better heard than seen imo. The problem is that most singers of the roles are (by necessity) mature and often bulky which somewhat ruins the effect of two young lovers, especially in HD. I prefer the audio experience and then at least you can imagine what goes on without the distraction of 'young' lovers.
Of course this applies to other opera too. I had the unfortunate experience of seeing the distinguished baritone Simon Keenlyside singing Don Giovanni. Da Ponte describes him as 'a licentious YOUNG nobleman.' Keenlyside is nearly 60 and in HD looked it even with make-up. Opera houses need to wake up to this.

 

[Woodduck]

Tristan is one of those operas better heard than seen imo. The problem is that most singers of the roles are (by necessity) mature and often bulky which somewhat ruins the effect of two young lovers, especially in HD. I prefer the audio experience and then at least you can imagine what goes on without the distraction of 'young' lovers.
Of course this applies to other opera too. I had the unfortunate experience of seeing the distinguished baritone Simon Keenlyside singing Don Giovanni. Da Ponte describes him as 'a licentious YOUNG nobleman.' Keenlyside is nearly 60 and in HD looked it even with make-up. Opera houses need to wake up to this.

We can lament the fact that most operatic protagonists are supposed to be young and gorgeous and that most singers (like most of us) aren't, but what's the solution? Plastic surgery? Liposuction? Careers that end at age 30? There are few enough great singers already.

 

[JAS]

I suggest that operas should be performed by idealized projections, keyed to the actual singing. movements and facial expressions of the performers by CGI. (I am not actually serious about this, but how long before it becomes the reality?)

 

[WildThing]

I suggest that operas should be performed by idealized projections, keyed to the actual singing. movements and facial expressions of the performers by CGI. (I am not actually serious about this, but how long before it becomes the reality?)

I don't think it's a bad idea actually. Especially if it gives us more ideal productions that are faithful to the composer's artistic conception.

 

[SixFootScowl]

I suggest that operas should be performed by idealized projections, keyed to the actual singing. movements and facial expressions of the performers by CGI. (I am not actually serious about this, but how long before it becomes the reality?)

There are a few opera DVDs out there where they used actors and had them lip sync to a track laid down by professional opera singers.

 

[Granate]

I've been thinking this for enough time. Opera was made to be performed in a theatre live in front of an audience with usually far-sight problems and really high vocal demands. Richard Strauss was one of the composers who did care about the looks of his singers but this is not general at all. This wasn't made to be filmed, but two things could be made: shot very few close ups and more general views or let opera houses cast more eye-pleasing singers like Karajan did for his Madame Butterfly video recording. If nothing of this is met, it's us the audience who should settle to this weakness.

But I don't understand this justification as it's just opera, and grand librettos are just presumptuous, and at the same time demand singers to look the part. I'm done with this.

 

[DavidA]

I've been thinking this for enough time. Opera was made to be performed in a theatre live in front of an audience with usually far-sight problems and really high vocal demands. Richard Strauss was one of the composers who did care about the looks of his singers but this is not general at all. This wasn't made to be filmed, but two things could be made: shot very few close ups and more general views or let opera houses cast more eye-pleasing singers like Karajan did for his Madame Butterfly video recording. If nothing of this is met, it's us the audience who should settle to this weakness.

But I don't understand this justification as it's just opera, and grand librettos are just presumptuous, and at the same time demand singers to look the part. I'm done with this.

Yes it's a preposterous art form. Why make it more preposterous with singers who don't look the part? Interestingly Marilyn Horne said that HD was a menace to opera singers, many of whom are too mature or too bulky for actually looking the parts they play, at least when looked at close up. I recently saw a Trovatore from ROH where the Manrico looked older than me! It might not affect you but it does me. I just want to laugh!
Karajan was one of those conductor / directors who actually wanted his singers to look good as well as sound good. When asked once about his contribution to opera he said, "At least I have chased all those fat ladies from the stage."

 

[mountmccabe]

But I don't understand this justification as it's just opera, and grand librettos are just presumptuous, and at the same time demand singers to look the part. I'm done with this.

Well said.

The first act of Tristan is supposed to take place on a boat but last time I saw a staged production it was inside of an opera house, not on a boat. The second act was supposed to be in Cornwall but it was actually in London, I could tell because Covent Garden is in London, not Cornwall.

I recently saw the Ring here in San Francisco and in Das Rheingold Alberich was supposed to turn into a giant snake beast, but the singer just went behind a wall so we couldn't really see him most of the time. He didn't actually shapeshift. Same deal for when he was supposed to turn into a toad.

But while it can be interesting to see how various elements of an opera are represented on stage that's really more a meta-concern than a part of the opera (in almost all cases). We have to work with the creators of the opera to accept that we are not seeing reality on stage. Some reality has to intrude to be able to present an opera on stage. Sometimes that distance is useful/used by the composer and/or director/crew; often it is not. We can examine and analyze that, but it is often best to focus on elements that work with what the opera is doing. And I consider the bodies of the singers to be one of those realities that is a necessary part of putting opera on stage.

Also I don't think there's anything in Tristan und Isolde that gives the ages of the characters other than the "young" sailor that has the initial song that Isolde gets mad at. There's also nothing that says anything about the weight of the characters. Older people fall in love. Overweight people fall in love. Whatever singers we're presented with... people like them have fallen in love, magic potion or no.

One can be a gross creep and insist that they must be teenagers or be a cruel fat-shamer and assume that they can't be above average weight or whatever, but none of that has anything to do with what was written.

 

[betterthanfine]

Yes it's a preposterous art form. Why make it more preposterous with singers who don't look the part? Interestingly Marilyn Horne said that HD was a menace to opera singers, many of whom are too mature or too bulky for actually looking the parts they play, at least when looked at close up. I recently saw a Trovatore from ROH where the Manrico looked older than me! It might not affect you but it does me. I just want to laugh!
Karajan was one of those conductor / directors who actually wanted his singers to look good as well as sound good. When asked once about his contribution to opera he said, "At least I have chased all those fat ladies from the stage."

Ageist and body shaming. Nice one.

 

[Woodduck]

We all have our personal tolerance levels in everything, but I think some of it is cultural. Audiences in earlier times were of necessity much more capable of suspending disbelief in the theater than many of us who've been raised on the sophisticated visual technologies of film, TV, and now CGI. We are spoiled, and that's unfortunate. We're also preoccupied with physical appearance. The first Tristan and Isolde were large people, and Wagner seems to have been happy with them. However, we have to assume that they acted their roles with the abandon he would have demanded, and not stood around like two beached whales the way Jane Eaglen and Ben Heppner did in their boring DVD from the Met. Being overweight is one thing, but looking as if you're too heavy to move is another.

 

[Scott in PA]

If only Sophia had sung Isolde!!

That was Sophia singing, wasn't it?

 

[DavidA]

Ageist and body shaming. Nice one.

tell that to Hollywood :lol: