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Trsitan und Isolde is one of but a few operas that I might think of as the single greatest opera ever composed... depending on the day of the week. :lol:

I have four or five recordings including the Pappano, Furtwangler, Kleiber, Barenboim, and the Karajan studio recording. I must check out the live version from the 1950s if it is ever released in a decent form.
 

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Trsitan und Isolde is one of but a few operas that I might think of as the single greatest opera ever composed... depending on the day of the week. :lol:

I have four or five recordings including the Pappano, Furtwangler, Kleiber, Barenboim, and the Karajan studio recording. I must check out the live version from the 1950s if it is ever released in a decent form.
It has.

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Thank the goddesses. ;D
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 · (Edited)

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Wagner didn't call it an opera.
He called it "eine handlung", a drama.
 

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A gorgeous atmospheric prelude and an ending that builds and build, crashes and then sublime quiet and still so you don't breathe and your heart stops for a moment. When Isolde sings the last few lines it is like an out of body experience.

I love the Deborah Polaski version of this on DVD filmed at the Liceu in Barcelona where she goes to the window at the end and just stares into space. Gorgeous and simple and very moving.

On cd I have struggled to find a definitive version. The first version I bought was deborah Voigt in a live recording with Thomas Moser. Both fairly weak voices but I was young and attracted to the box cover!
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
A gorgeous atmospheric prelude and an ending that builds and build, crashes and then sublime quiet and still so you don't breathe and your heart stops for a moment. When Isolde sings the last few lines it is like an out of body experience.

I love the Deborah Polaski version of this on DVD filmed at the Liceu in Barcelona where she goes to the window at the end and just stares into space. Gorgeous and simple and very moving.

On cd I have struggled to find a definitive version. The first version I bought was deborah Voigt in a live recording with Thomas Moser. Both fairly weak voices but I was young and attracted to the box cover!
Furtwangler, Barenboim, Kleiber, Bohm, Karajan have great recordings.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 · (Edited)
Is there any DVD out there that has Isolde holding Tristan in her arms as she dies as Wagner intended?

The ones I've seen are awful.
 

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Is there any DVD out there that has Isolde holding Tristan in her arms as she dies as Wagner intended?

The ones I've seen are awful.
I would doubt that there is. It became fashionable at some point to have Isolde "transfigure" in such a way as to leave us in doubt as to what has happened to her, indeed as to whether she even dies. It is just one of many de-Wagnerizations of Wagner we have had to learn to tolerate.

Wagner is sometimes accused of creating characters who are not fully "human," but he would have been shocked at such an accusation. Frequently we encounter in his writings the phrase "the fully human." He never intended or even imagined, in making his dramatic figures "larger than life," that they should not in every way act as real people would act.

Isolde dies. She dies for love, yes - just as did Iseult, her medieval prototype - and in her love she holds her lover's body as she dies, and sinks down upon it at last. And what does Wagner tell us happens then? The kindly Marke, who has come too late to offer forgiveness to the pair and bless their union, raises his hands in blessing over them. When have we ever seen that? When will we ever see Wagner's deeply, heartbreakingly human understanding and sympathy for the human beings he created and loved brought before us in the theater?
 

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Having recently contributed the following to the thread "The Greatest Opera Ever Written," I think I'll import it to this one in case there's anything in it of interest to anyone here.

Whether it's actually the greatest opera - with respect to everything that the complex art of opera can be - Tristan is, I think, the greatest single achievement in the entire history of music. There may be more perfect operas; but certain rare achievements in art are so immense, so stunning and awe-inspiring, as to make mere perfection seem irrelevant. I think immediately of Shakespeare and King Lear, of the late quartets of Beethoven, and of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde.

For its unimaginable expansion of the possibilities of the language of Western music, for its daring plunge deep into aspects of human experience no musical work had ever explored before, for its sheer intensity and visceral impact, this is the work above all others that, no matter how long and well we've known it - and perhaps all the more the better we know it - leaves us feeling that it could not possibly exist, that no human being could ever have dreamed of such a thing.

So much of what has happened since 1859, in music and even beyond music, has been what it is because of this singular work. Wagner may have equalled or surpassed it in one respect or another in subsequent works - the broad humanity of Meistersinger, the spiritual profundity of Parsifal - but when all is said and done it is Tristan which confronts us with an unaccountable eruption of genius without any parallel, which like a volcanic eruption changed the landscape of Western culture forever, for better or for worse.

Tristan went beyond anything even Wagner himself suspected opera, even music itself, could be. It astonished him even as he wrote it. If we have any idea of what we're hearing, it can hardly astonish us less.
 

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Isolde dies. She [Isolde] dies for love, yes - just as did Iseult, her medieval prototype - and in her love she holds her lover's body as she dies, and sinks down upon it at last.
Uh-oh. Here comes another quibble - well, a bit more than a quibble, actually, as it contradicts directly your above. It's an article I wrote for S&F in 2004 titled "Isolde's Liebestod - Or Is It?" which article asks the question:

=== Begin Quote ===
At music-drama's close, should we take it that Isolde is dead or not? To ninety-nine percent of those who know this work, even to those who consider they know it well, the question would seem absurd. Of course she's dead!, would be the astonished response. Isn't her closing apostrophe called the Liebestod?
=== End Quote ===

and answers it all in the negative.

The article is way too long to republish here but for those interested can be read at URL http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2004/08/isoldes_iliebes.html.

--
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http://www.soundsandfury.com/
 

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Ack!!! Silly me. I searched Amazon under "Tristan und Isolde Karajan 1952" and all I got were some questionable and high-priced OOP recordings. Broadening the search to "Tristan und Isolde Karajan" you find several releases as well as a 1959 La Scala recording with Karajan:



Another recording added to the "wish list".

Perhaps I can convince the wife that I bought it for her for Valentines Day. :devil:
 

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Uh-oh. Here comes another quibble - well, a bit more than a quibble, actually, as it contradicts directly your above. It's an article I wrote for S&F in 2004 titled "Isolde's Liebestod - Or Is It?" which article asks the question:

=== Begin Quote ===
At music-drama's close, should we take it that Isolde is dead or not? To ninety-nine percent of those who know this work, even to those who consider they know it well, the question would seem absurd. Of course she's dead!, would be the astonished response. Isn't her closing apostrophe called the Liebestod?
=== End Quote ===

and answers it all in the negative.

The article is way too long to republish here but for those interested can be read at URL http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2004/08/isoldes_iliebes.html.

--
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http://www.soundsandfury.com/
I've read your article, It strikes me as an extended rationalization, a theory in search of evidence. You argue that "death" and "transfiguration" are somehow incompatible. But on the level of unconscious mythic symbolism, death can mean transformation. And even on a more literal level, if Isolde can die for love she can experience transfiguration before the moment of literal death. There's no incompatibility here. Marke blessing a dead Tristan and a still-breathing Isolde is poetically absurd. Tristan and Isolde sought the impossible in life - the "death"of the day world and a perfect union of their souls in the land of "night." Reality, however, has the last word - or rather, the last gesture, as the inhabitants of the day world stand about, transfixed by Isolde's vision of union with Tristan, and Marke punctuates the end with a solemn farewell to all the pain of people who were caught up in lives that were unbearable to them. "Union" was an illusion; the only union possible was death, and now the lovers have achieved it. Whatever else this story is - whatever the exultation along the way, whatever the "transfiguration" at the end - it is still a very human tragedy.

It was with Tristan that Wagner's youthful dream of "redemption by love" was revealed to be the phantom that it must ever be. The fate of Tristan and Isolde signaled the advent of a new realism in Wagner's outlook on life, a realism which compelled him to alter the course of his magnum opus, the Ring; there love brings disaster, and with the destruction of the world Wagner tells us that redemption must be looked for beyond the realm of passion and desire. Enter Parsifal.
 

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Ack!!! Silly me. I searched Amazon under "Tristan und Isolde Karajan 1952" and all I got were some questionable and high-priced OOP recordings. Broadening the search to "Tristan und Isolde Karajan" you find several releases as well as a 1959 La Scala recording with Karajan:



Another recording added to the "wish list".

Perhaps I can convince the wife that I bought it for her for Valentines Day. :devil:
Tristan and Isolde - a Valentine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This may be the funniest thing I've ever read on TC.

:clap:
 

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I've read your article, It strikes me as an extended rationalization, a theory in search of evidence. You argue that "death" and "transfiguration" are somehow incompatible. But on the level of unconscious mythic symbolism, death can mean transformation. And even on a more literal level, if Isolde can die for love she can experience transfiguration before the moment of literal death. There's no incompatibility here. Marke blessing a dead Tristan and a still-breathing Isolde is poetically absurd.
Not "incompatible" but two different states. When Isolde undergoes her Verklärung her bodily self, now an empty shell, doesn't disappear but simply appears to any and all onlookers to be merely ordinarily dead. My argument is that her death is nothing of the sort, but appearance like all other appearances of Day is false and merely makes it seem so.

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http://www.soundsandfury.com/
 

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Not "incompatible" but two different states. When Isolde undergoes her Verklärung her bodily self, now an empty shell, doesn't disappear but simply appears to any and all onlookers to be merely ordinarily dead. My argument is that her death is nothing of the sort, but appearance like all other appearances of Day is false and merely makes it seem so.

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http://www.soundsandfury.com/
I'm afraid this doesn't make sense to me. Isolde in the end is simply dead or alive. In either case "transfiguration" is something only she experiences; the others can't comprehend her visions. There is nothing in Wagner's stage directions to indicate that she is still living; Marke segnet die Leichen - "Mark blesses the corpses," plural.

My question is: what purpose is served by having her live on? None that I can see. What would she do next? Go home and fix Mark some venison and mead? Or be confined to a turret as insane and fed bread and water through a cat door? Her death makes every kind of sense, philosophically and poetically. In Wagner spiritual states are represented by physical states; when someone dies, something - some principle, some stage in the evolution or consciousness of humanity - is left behind. In his mythic world, nothing less than death will do. Senta doesn't swim to shore; Elisabeth doesn't join a convent; Elsa doesn't moon over lost love; Kundry doesn't become Mary Magdalene to Parsifal's Jesus. If we strip Isolde of her death we render Tristan's death merely pathetic and absurd, not a "tranfiguration" for Isolde but a terrible grief to be carried for the rest of her days. The "union" the pair longed for must, in poetic justice and in mercy, be consummated, but in the only way it can be. To leave a mentally deranged Isolde to cope with the "day world" is to leave the whole story nothing but a daydream turned nightmare, a cruel, superficial irony rather than a tragic one.

After all that the man and the woman have been through, let them rest in peace, "she by him and he by her."
 

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Is there any DVD out there that has Isolde holding Tristan in her arms as she dies as Wagner intended?
The ones I've seen are awful.
You may not like this video of "love death" but I find so visually compelling and abstractly captures the songs essence.

Notice the human carnage all around the room that resulted from this ill fated love, then sharply contrasted by the slowly rising expanded consciousness and enlightened vision of pure love fully consummated outside this mortal world, waves of music wash over her, as the intensity grows the camera tightens in till the growing golden pure light consumes our heroine as she fully surrenders to its irresistible pull......glorious visual!

No one can capture the beautiful otherworldly rapture and spiritual release like Waltraud Meier.........

 

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I'm afraid this doesn't make sense to me. Isolde in the end is simply dead or alive. In either case "transfiguration" is something only she experiences; the others can't comprehend her visions. There is nothing in Wagner's stage directions to indicate that she is still living; Marke segnet die Leichen - "Mark blesses the corpses," plural.

My question is: what purpose is served by having her live on? None that I can see. What would she do next? Go home and fix Mark some venison and mead? Or be confined to a turret as insane and fed bread and water through a cat door? Her death makes every kind of sense, philosophically and poetically. In Wagner spiritual states are represented by physical states; when someone dies, something - some principle, some stage in the evolution or consciousness of humanity - is left behind. In his mythic world, nothing less than death will do. Senta doesn't swim to shore; Elisabeth doesn't join a convent; Elsa doesn't moon over lost love; Kundry doesn't become Mary Magdalene to Parsifal's Jesus. If we strip Isolde of her death we render Tristan's death merely pathetic and absurd, not a "tranfiguration" for Isolde but a terrible grief to be carried for the rest of her days. The "union" the pair longed for must, in poetic justice and in mercy, be consummated, but in the only way it can be. To leave a mentally deranged Isolde to cope with the "day world" is to leave the whole story nothing but a daydream turned nightmare, a cruel, superficial irony rather than a tragic one.

After all that the man and the woman have been through, let them rest in peace, "she by him and he by her."
If there is a real tragedy in Tristan und Isolde it is that Tristan's death really IS "pathetic" by itself, a misunderstanding by him - he who ironically was Isolde's "teacher" in this whole business as I point out in my S&F article - about death and its nature in the eternal union of two lovers. As always with Wagner, it is Isolde, the female, who finally understands everything and understands just what death in this context actually means, and it is she who makes the eternal union with her Tristan possible for them both by her Verklärung and by so doing lifts the music-drama above the level of mere tragedy and into the realm of the radiantly transcendent.

As to W's stage directions, there may be no direct statement that Isolde is still living, but, then, there's none that directly indicate she's ordinarily dead either. Hence, the ambiguity I note in my article.

Oh, and as to those "Leichen" Marke blesses, there are some half-dozen or so of them scattered about the scene here and there.

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http://www.soundsandfury.com/
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
You may not like this video of "love death" but I find so visually compelling and abstractly captures the songs essence.

Notice the human carnage all around the room that resulted from this ill fated love, then sharply contrasted by the slowly rising expanded consciousness and enlightened vision of pure love fully consummated outside this mortal world, waves of music wash over her, as the intensity grows the camera tightens in till the growing golden pure light consumes our heroine as she fully surrenders to its irresistible pull......glorious visual!

No one can capture the beautiful otherworldly rapture and spiritual release like Waltraud Meier.........

Thank you DA. Really appreciate the post.
I generally don't care for filmed productions.
I like videos of live performances and a live audience. Just seems more exciting and real to me.

You're right. I don't care for that production. Don't like the condemned building looking set.
And hated the love music set. And wasn't crazy about the yellow square. :)
The singing however was wonderful.

I kinda liked the Ponnelle/Barenboim sets, but the ending is a mess.

I want a live, tasteful, true to RW's performance. Too much to ask for today I guess.
 
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