[Marc]

The thread was about whether or not we are interested in the vandalism to Beethoven’s masterwork. I just said I am not. May I ask you if you attended this august occasion?

And I responded to a comment in that thread.

'For the rest':
Vandalism is subjective. Even though people are free to say so, I strongly oppose to that term in general. (Which, of course, is also subjective.)
Many people did (and still do probably) consider Warhol's arrangement projects vandalism, too.
Now it's part of the canon of Art.
Other 'vandalism' has disappeared in oblivion.

As I said, I am not interested in Alsop's initiative. I have no plans to attend it. I myself am into the category "stay away from it".
But to me, Alsop is perfectly free to 'vandalize' Beethoven's piece.
Bach's arrangement (including the meaning) of Pergolesi's Stabat Mater did not have to do anything with a mourning mother (as in the original), and he also changed a lot in the composition. Vandalism?
Some people run away, almost puking, when they hear Busoni's piano arrangements of Bach's keyboard works. Busoni also added his own notes and changes. Vandalism?
Many film makers use classical music for a totally different intention than the original composer ever meant to. Vandalism?

As long as the performers make clear that their performance is not (meant as) the original (in booklets, announcements, whatever) then I'm perfectly fine with any 'vandalization' of art. It might be of interest to (many) others, so: bless them!
Otherwise I (and others) can also never enjoy or take any interest any stage play that is an adaptation of f.i. a novel, with added and changed conversations. Because we should consider it a vandalization of the original. We should stay away from any Anne Frank stage play that has a more political meaning than Anne Frank's original diary ever had.

Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Beethoven's original piece will not be damaged by this initiative. It has already proven its eternal value, and it will remain to do so.
As has the Mona Lisa.
As has Anne Frank's diary.

We will see whether Alsop's 'vandalization' can stand the times, too.
(Probably not.... )

 

[SanAntone]

We will see whether Alsop's 'vandalization' can stand the times, too.

I seriously doubt whether Alsop contemplated her reimagining of the 9th symphony will "stand the test of time." Like any work that draws on fleeting trends of language, topics, and social issues has an expiration date as popular culture moves on to the next style, issue, and audience.

What seems obvious to me, but seems to have escaped some here, is that Alsop wished to commemorate Beethoven's 250th anniversary in a uniquely Baltimore fashion.

Where others see danger I see this as a harmless concert designed to draw an audience that would be new to the Classical concert experience.

 

[Marc]

I seriously doubt whether Alsop contemplated her reimagining of the 9th symphony will "stand the test of time." Like any work that draws on fleeting trends of language, topics, and social issues has an expiration date as popular culture moves on to the next style, issue, and audience.

What seems obvious to me, but seems to have escaped some here, is that Alsop wished to commemorate Beethoven's 250th anniversary in a uniquely Baltimore fashion.

Where others see danger I see this as a harmless concert designed to draw an audience that would be new to the Classical concert experience.

Sure, there are probably more art works or arrangements of which the (re)creator had no plan or illusion that it would 'stand the test of time'.
I.c. the rest: agreed.

There has always been a crossover of various forms of art, which can lead to new art forms or new 'cultural expressions'. Let's celebrate it, even when we ourselves don't always appreciate or like it.

Beethoven even had the gutz to insert boogie woogie in his last piano sonata, the little rascal!

 

[fbjim]

I seriously doubt whether Alsop contemplated her reimagining of the 9th symphony will "stand the test of time." Like any work that draws on fleeting trends of language, topics, and social issues has an expiration date as popular culture moves on to the next style, issue, and audience.

What seems obvious to me, but seems to have escaped some here, is that Alsop wished to commemorate Beethoven's 250th anniversary in a uniquely Baltimore fashion.

Where others see danger I see this as a harmless concert designed to draw an audience that would be new to the Classical concert experience.

Performances are inherently transient things, and I think they were more understood as such in the era before recordings. The idea that this will cause some sort of irrevocable damage, or need to "stand the test of time" is more a modern concept that speaks to our view of everything as worth preserving, and our general resistance to transience in art.

 

[marlow]

And I responded to a comment in that thread.

'For the rest':
Vandalism is subjective. Even though people are free to say so, I strongly oppose to that term in general. (Which, of course, is also subjective.)
Many people did (and still do probably) consider Warhol's arrangement projects vandalism, too.
Now it's part of the canon of Art.
Other 'vandalism' has disappeared in oblivion.

As I said, I am not interested in Alsop's initiative. I have no plans to attend it. I myself am into the category "stay away from it".
But to me, Alsop is perfectly free to 'vandalize' Beethoven's piece.
Bach's arrangement (including the meaning) of Pergolesi's Stabat Mater did not have to do anything with a mourning mother (as in the original), and he also changed a lot in the composition. Vandalism?
Some people run away, almost puking, when they hear Busoni's piano arrangements of Bach's keyboard works. Busoni also added his own notes and changes. Vandalism?
Many film makers use classical music for a totally different intention than the original composer ever meant to. Vandalism?

As long as the performers make clear that their performance is not (meant as) the original (in booklets, announcements, whatever) then I'm perfectly fine with any 'vandalization' of art. It might be of interest to (many) others, so: bless them!
Otherwise I (and others) can also never enjoy or take any interest any stage play that is an adaptation of f.i. a novel, with added and changed conversations. Because we should consider it a vandalization of the original. We should stay away from any Anne Frank stage play that has a more political meaning than Anne Frank's original diary ever had.

Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Beethoven's original piece will not be damaged by this initiative. It has already proven its eternal value, and it will remain to do so.
As has the Mona Lisa.
As has Anne Frank's diary.

We will see whether Alsop's 'vandalization' can stand the times, too.
(Probably not.... )

must confess you write a lot of words in defence of Alsop considering you are not interested. I think to compare the efforts of Bach and Busoni to a rapper is somewhat ingenuous.

 

[Marc]

must confess you write a lot of words in defence of Alsop considering you are not interested. I think to compare the efforts of Bach and Busoni to a rapper is somewhat ingenuous.

Yep, I defend her, and all other arrangers and editors, even when their work is 'doomed' to disappear into oblivion.

I'm not that much into rap and the rapping scene myself (I do like a few rap & hip hop songs though), but I'm not gonna put a condescending stamp on it/them and consider classical music and classical composers as part of an almost holy art which should be worshipped above anything else and be treated like that.

Imho, there's nothing much wrong with letting different cultures and arts intertwine.

 

[marlow]

Yep, I defend her, and all other arrangers and editors, even when their work is 'doomed' to disappear into oblivion.

I'm not that much into rap and the rapping scene myself (I do like a few rap & hip hop songs though), but I'm not gonna put a condescending stamp on it/them and consider classical music and classical composers as part of an almost holy art which should be worshipped above anything else and be treated like that.

Imho, there's nothing much wrong with letting different cultures and arts intertwine.

I certainly don’t think that classical music is to be ‘worshipped’. Just can’t stand it when second-rate people use masterpieces to try and climb on a culturally fashionable bandwagon.

 

[Marc]

I certainly don’t think that classical music is to be ‘worshipped’. Just can’t stand it when second-rate people use masterpieces to try and climb on a culturally fashionable bandwagon.

I'm not into this kind of rating stuff actually. I have my own preferences and I'm happy with them, but that's all.
Many rappers and hip hop fans might consider Beethoven second-rated and utterly boring, which doesn't 'impress' me that much either.
Intertwining cultures, arranging art for other purposes, whether 'second-rated', 'culturally fashionable' and whatever or not, has been happening for ages and ages.
I'm perfectly fine with it.

 

[marlow]

I'm not into this kind of rating stuff actually. I have my own preferences and I'm happy with them, but that's all.
Many rappers and hip hop fans might consider Beethoven second-rated and utterly boring, which doesn't 'impress' me that much either.
Intertwining cultures, arranging art for other purposes, whether 'second-rated', 'culturally fashionable' and whatever or not, has been happening for ages and ages.
I'm perfectly fine with it.

Other peopke can think what they like. I am here on TC to give my opinion.

 

[Marc]

Other peopke can think what they like. I am here on TC to give my opinion.

Of course you can. I have never ever questioned that.
I give my own opinion, too. It's mostly a rather mellow one, as you might have experienced.