Message to Young Listeners

1173 Views 45 Replies 11 Participants Last post by schaitelh, 2 mo ago

schaitelh

Discussion Starter · 2 mo ago (Edited)

Sorry for my egotistical attitude in presenting my viewpoint on classical music. I appreciate balance, and everyone should at least give classical music a try. I am not by means enforcing that as the only genre to listen to.

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chu42

· #2 · 2 mo ago

schaitelh said:
I understand the plight of temptation with many other musical styles. I beseech for you to not let this temptation crush you down. Crush it down by reminding yourself of what's better.

There is nothing wrong with listening to multiple genres. You don't need to think that classical musical is the "better" or "superior" genre in order to enjoy it.

Reactions: 4

Eva Yojimbo

· #3 · 2 mo ago

I really don't know who you think this post is addressed to because I'm guessing anyone who bothers making an account on a classical music form probably already likes/loves classical music. Further, a whole lot of people here love music from all genres and grow tired of elitism of classical snobs that you display in your OP towards other genres. I swear the fans of classical music do more to turn away young people than the music does. If you want to see how to attract young people to classical music then go watch 2SetViolin.

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Richannes Wrahms

· #4 · 2 mo ago

I appreciate the enthusiam but this reads like a copypasta.

If not then go to a therapist.

If you do already they might recommend an antipsychotic so that your brain doesn't malfunction and melt.

Reactions: 1

schaitelh

Discussion Starter · #5 · 2 mo ago

Guys, I know that I have tried to inspire everyone, but not all genres of music are bad. In fact, all genres have some element of goodness. With that said, I will delete this post. Sorry for all the misunderstandings.
\

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schaitelh

Discussion Starter · #6 · 2 mo ago

I cannot delete the post. I edited it.

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schaitelh

Discussion Starter · #7 · 2 mo ago

Richannes Wrahms said:
I appreciate the enthusiam but this reads like a copypasta.

If not then go to a therapist.

If you do already they might recommend an antipsychotic so that your brain doesn't malfunction and melt.

I sounded all too braggadocio here. I changed my message completely.

schaitelh

Discussion Starter · #8 · 2 mo ago

Eva Yojimbo said:
I really don't know who you think this post is addressed to because I'm guessing anyone who bothers making an account on a classical music form probably already likes/loves classical music. Further, a whole lot of people here love music from all genres and grow tired of elitism of classical snobs that you display in your OP towards other genres. I swear the fans of classical music do more to turn away young people than the music does. If you want to see how to attract young people to classical music then go watch 2SetViolin.

I came across with a much too prideful attitude, and with that, I changed the entirety of my post. Please forgive me.

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schaitelh

Discussion Starter · #9 · 2 mo ago

chu42 said:
There is nothing wrong with listening to multiple genres. You don't need to think that classical musical is the "better" or "superior" genre in order to enjoy it.

I completely understand this. I also listen to jazz, bluegrass, etc. Sorry for any misunderstandings I may have had. With that, I changed my post.

Reactions: 1

HansZimmer

· #10 · 2 mo ago

Eva Yojimbo said:
and grow tired of elitism of classical snobs that you display in your OP towards other genres.

What about the snobbery of rock listeners towards other genres? You seem to think that only the listeners of classical music say that their favourite genre is the best one, but it's not true.

That said, classical music is the best genre (the one that has statistically produced the highest art) while some genres of music are born to be dumb.

Reactions: 2

schaitelh

Discussion Starter · #11 · 2 mo ago

HansZimmer said:
What about the snobbery of rock listeners towards other genres? You seem to think that only the listeners of classical music say that their favourite genre is the best one, but it's not true.

That said, classical music is the best genre (the one that has statistically produced the highest art) while some genres of music are born to be dumb.

You do have a point, and this was the overall moral of my original post. However, I came across as a little too snobby, so I edited it. (Fans of genres like K-Pop are notorious for bashing those who are not fans, but I completely respect those people). I respect fans of any genre. It comes down to personal preference.

schaitelh

Discussion Starter · #12 · 2 mo ago

There is still no shame in those solo conducting fits or those reveries in bed, but if you prefer head-banging, that's on you!

Eva Yojimbo

· #13 · 2 mo ago

HansZimmer said:
What about the snobbery of rock listeners towards other genres? You seem to think that only the listeners of classical music say that their favourite genre is the best one, but it's not true.

That said, classical music is the best genre (the one that has statistically produced the highest art) while some genres of music are born to be dumb.

I dislike any musical snobbery, and I didn't mean to suggest it doesn't exist among fans of other genres besides classical. However, based on my experience, I think that attitude is MOST common in classical. The only other genre I think I find it almost as commonly is, perhaps surprisingly, metal. Metal elitists can be just as insufferable as classical elitists.

What in the world does "statistically produced the highest art" even mean and how in the world do/did you quantify that? I don't think there's any genre of music that's innately dumb. I think there are dumb people that make shallow/superficial music in every genre, and that includes classical. These people are usually forgotten with time and what we're lift with are the creative geniuses.

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Eva Yojimbo

· #14 · 2 mo ago

schaitelh said:
I came across with a much too prideful attitude, and with that, I changed the entirety of my post. Please forgive me.

Don't sweat it.

Classical is full of wonderful music. You'll never find me arguing otherwise. I do wish more people in general (young and old) would open their mind to it, but the sad fact is that most people are limited to liking/enjoying whatever music they grew up with. Occasionally they'll enjoy something outside of that, but it's rare. There's been studies that show most people's favorite music is whatever music was popular when they were a teenager. Discovering classical (and other unpopular genres) is mostly left to the handful of people that develop a genuine passion for music and want to explore different genres/styles in depth, and who are intrigued by music that's different from what they're used to rather than repelled by it.

Reactions: 1

HansZimmer

· #15 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

Eva Yojimbo said:
What in the world does "statistically produced the highest art" even mean and how in the world do/did you quantify that? I don't think there's any genre of music that's innately dumb. I think there are dumb people that make shallow/superficial music in every genre, and that includes classical. These people are usually forgotten with time and what we're lift with are the creative geniuses.

I think that classical music is the best genre in particular for two inventions:

Orchestral music: created and developed by the classical music composers. Thanks to it, classical music has reached the highest sophistication in the vertical dimension of music.
The sonata-form: created and developed by the classical music composers. Thanks to it, classical music has reached the highest sophistication in the horizontal dimension of music.

Thanks to the combination of the two inventions, the classical music composers have reached the highest artistic achievements in music.

Now, someone might say that in all genres there are beautiful tunes, not only in classical music, but this is a superficial consideration. If the only thing you want to consider are the "beautiful tunes", then yes, all the genres could be considered equal. However, if we don't want to be superficial, we should remember that for example Mozart's music has NOT ONLY beautiful tunes. It's music which combine beautiful tunes with the sonata-form and the orchestral music. Perhaps the two last ingredients should be taken in consideration before to say that a simple pop song is comparable to Mozart's music only because it has beautiful tunes.

An other consideration: a sound technician in an other forum explained that he has to do miracles to make some famous pop singers sound right.
This is probably the reason for which we see so many embarassing situations in pop music.

This doesn't mean that there are not trained singers in pop, but this is a relevant detail to make a STATISTICAL comparision between genres. STATISTICALLY speaking, should I take a genre full of hacks as seriously as a genre like classical music whose singers and performers are in average highly trained?

Finally, the genre is critical in determining the AVERAGE contents, because a genre usually brings a culture with it.
There are genres in which the AVERAGE contents are dumb and others in which the content is in average more serious.
And if someone tell me that the content don't matter, because they don't define the essence of music, I don't agree: the must be taken in consideration for juding the overall artistic product. Dumb contents ruin the music.

In conclusion, the idea according to which all genres would be equal doesn't make sense to me.

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LKB

· #16 · 2 mo ago

Back when l was an oboist at university, the wind quintet l played in would occasionally be asked to perform at local primary schools and community centers. We'd usually be asked to individually give a short presentation, and " introduce " our respective instruments before performing.

I learned a few things on those occasions:

1: Condescension is fatal. Whether your audience's mean age is eight or eighty, as soon as they detect you talking down, you're done.

2: Provide a familiar musical reference. At schools I'd usually play the Swan character from Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf; with older audiences I'd ask for someone's favorite oboe solo ( which l always knew, fortunately... ).

3: Prepare a one-minute summary of your instrument, which should be useful for any age group. You may not always have the time or opportunity to use it, but have it on standby.

4: Enjoy what you're performing. Just as importantly, show enjoyment of your colleagues' endeavors. ( Not in any false sense, don't " act ". Just allow yourself to be the audience, whenever you're not actually playing or singing. )

One final point.

In every school, there will be children who are regularly shunned ( if not actually bullied ) by their schoolmates. I was, from elementary school until high school, a span of four years or so.

It was music which made this period bearable. I couldn't communicate well with my parents or older siblings, whose challenges and responsibilities seemed so much greater than my mere inability to cope.

But once exposed to orchestral works such as Scheherazade, Also Sprach Zarathustra, Beethoven's symphonies, and other examples from the standard repertoire, l was... not " saved ", but protected and even privileged: the bullies would never know the riches l now had access to, and so became impotent.

So when l was a few years older, at every school we went to l was always performing for the one young person who needed it the most, who could find refuge in what l was presenting.

I hope l delivered, at least once.

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Ulalume!Ulalume!

· #17 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

Eva Yojimbo said:
I really don't know who you think this post is addressed to because I'm guessing anyone who bothers making an account on a classical music form probably already likes/loves classical music. Further, a whole lot of people here love music from all genres and grow tired of elitism of classical snobs that you display in your OP towards other genres. I swear the fans of classical music do more to turn away young people than the music does. If you want to see how to attract young people to classical music then go watch 2SetViolin.

I disagree about perceived snobbery and elitism being such a massive turn off. I know plenty of young people into jazz. Part of the initial appeal is that Coltrane and co. are deified as superlative musical geniuses whose albums are considered defining cultural documents that listeners serious about music ought engage with. In fact, I'd say that part of the appeal for a great deal of people, right or wrong, is the potential of being viewed as an elitist listener. "What... you don't listen to Ornette Coleman? Pfft.. what a pleb."

Personally I think the biggest hurdle for potential classical listeners is rather that—due to the LP-centric nature of most people's listening habits—unlike post-war jazz—and the assumption that the Classical Music names comparable with Coltrane and Davis are Mozart and Beethoven rather than say Oistrakh and Menuhin—or insert the most acclaimed pianists, conductors, etc—there is not a widely recognised canon of Great Albums, therefore people are confused about where to begin. Before I explored jazz in my early 20s I already recognized the artwork of the most famous albums and knew I ought start with them, that wasn't the case for classical.

edit: another aspect of the appeal is believing you're about to enter into a world of art superior to that you're already familiar with. Growing up I was so awed with the names of the great artists from the various musical genres and incredibly eager to explore their work precisely because of the prestige surrounding them. If their fans insisted that their work was actually no better than pop music I don't know if I'd have bothered.

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schaitelh

Discussion Starter · #18 · 2 mo ago

Eva Yojimbo said:
I dislike any musical snobbery, and I didn't mean to suggest it doesn't exist among fans of other genres besides classical. However, based on my experience, I think that attitude is MOST common in classical. The only other genre I think I find it almost as commonly is, perhaps surprisingly, metal. Metal elitists can be just as insufferable as classical elitists.

What in the world does "statistically produced the highest art" even mean and how in the world do/did you quantify that? I don't think there's any genre of music that's innately dumb. I think there are dumb people that make shallow/superficial music in every genre, and that includes classical. These people are usually forgotten with time and what we're lift with are the creative geniuses.

Exactly. Mozart showed the dumb attitude that some players of classical music displayed--humorously of course--in his satirical work "A Musical Joke". It just shows that dumbness is not just limited to the most popular genres. I used to listen to metal (though I no longer care for it anymore), but I must admit I was snobby about that also. That's for sure. We all need to work on our ego. Humility is necessary for appreciating the whole of art. I think part of the reason is how much of the population likes metal/classical music compared to pop, rap, etc.

Reactions: 1

schaitelh

Discussion Starter · #19 · 2 mo ago

Eva Yojimbo said:
Don't sweat it. Classical is full of wonderful music. You'll never find me arguing otherwise. I do wish more people in general (young and old) would open their mind to it, but the sad fact is that most people are limited to liking/enjoying whatever music they grew up with. Occasionally they'll enjoy something outside of that, but it's rare. There's been studies that show most people's favorite music is whatever music was popular when they were a teenager. Discovering classical (and other unpopular genres) is mostly left to the handful of people that develop a genuine passion for music and want to explore different genres/styles in depth, and who are intrigued by music that's different from what they're used to rather than repelled by it.

I concur. Studies show that 33 is the average age for people to stop discovering new music, but my mother, who is in her fifties, loves classical music more than ever because I exposed her to so much of it from the radio. However, she also enjoys '70s/'80s pop music. We all need to develop a greater musical appreciation. My choir teacher (now retired but is teaching me piano now) really instilled a great love for classical music through various documentaries. She assigned essays to write about them, but I certainly did not mind that. As a matter of fact, it helped me to appreciate more of the history. My uncle also loves that genre (he taught me the piano when I was in the fourth grade and would play classical music in my presence here and there), and I also believe he made a great impact. He also listens to classic rock (e.g. Pink Floyd). I don't necessarily care for classic rock, but balance is key.

Reactions: 1

schaitelh

Discussion Starter · #20 · 2 mo ago

HansZimmer said:
I think that classical music is the best genre in particular for two inventions:

Orchestral music: created and developed by the classical music composers. Thanks to it, classical music has reached the highest sophistication in the vertical dimension of music.

The sonata-form: created and developed by the classical music composers. Thanks to it, classical music has reached the highest sophistication in the horizontal dimension of music.

Thanks to the combination of the two inventions, the classical music composers have reached the highest artistic achievements in music.

Now, someone might say that in all genres there are beautiful tunes, not only in classical music, but this is a superficial consideration. If the only thing you want to consider are the "beautiful tunes", then yes, all the genres could be considered equal. However, if we don't want to be superficial, we should remember that for example Mozart's music has NOT ONLY beautiful tunes. It's music which combine beautiful tunes with the sonata-form and the orchestral music. Perhaps the two last ingredients should be taken in consideration before to say that a simple pop song is comparable to Mozart's music only because it has beautiful tunes.

An other consideration: a sound technician in an other forum explained that he has to do miracles to make some famous pop singers sound right.
This is probably the reason for which we see so many embarassing situations in pop music.

This doesn't mean that there are not trained singers in pop, but this is a relevant detail to make a STATISTICAL comparision between genres. STATISTICALLY speaking, should I take a genre full of hacks as seriously as a genre like classical music whose singers and performers are in average highly trained?

Finally, the genre is critical in determining the AVERAGE contents, because a genre usually brings a culture with it.
There are genres in which the AVERAGE contents are dumb and others in which the content is in average more serious.
And if someone tell me that the content don't matter, because they don't define the essence of music, I don't agree: the must be taken in consideration for juding the overall artistic product. Dumb contents ruin the music.

In conclusion, the idea according to which all genres would be equal doesn't make sense to me.

I certainly understand that! In a way, I do agree, but not all pop music is not necessarily fodder (though much of it is). Take Andrea Bocelli, for instance. His voice is so pure and distinguished, and his work is most definitely lovely.

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