[Ulalume!Ulalume!]

I like to watch the music channels on cable sometimes and see what they're feeding the cattle. The retro channels have done a lot to debunk the idea that pop was better in the past. I watched Michael Jackson's Bad the other day. It's one of those "legendary" songs I can't imagine anyone actually choosing to listen to. Also I recall him being "cancelled" a few years back. It was distasteful to play his music for a few weeks after some documentary came out about him, then everyone decided that Thriller was just too good and we forgave him. Yet the far superior artist R Kelly remains a villain. Years ago in school a teacher asked us who we most admired and everyone came out with insincere crap like Nikola Tesla and Nelson Mandela, I said R Kelly and Mrs ___ looked at me aghast. And that was before the dreaded allegations.

p.s. New Edition's Candy Girl was waaaaaaaay better than any Jackson 5 or solo Jacko song. In fact I just played it on YT and was reminded of Mr Telephone Man, Popcorn Love, Count Me Out, Earth Angel. All massive tunes! Pop being better in the past is now rebunked. Thanks for reading.

 

[Nate Miller]

first of all, you are nuts. But you are Canadian, so I can understand why hot dance music isnt your thing.

But MJ was a great entertainer. In the Jackson 5, little Mike was awesome. He had James Brown's spin down at age 5. Dont underestimate him as a dancer, either.

Then in the 80s he turned out some serious hits. Thriller was a groundbreaking music video. There's alot to like, its just that you have to like dance music

I get it not liking pop music, but give credit where credit is due. He was an incredible singer and dancer and a great entertainer in the 70s and 80s.

 

[Forster]

It was distasteful to play his music for a few weeks after some documentary came out about him, then everyone decided that Thriller was just too good and we forgave him. Yet the far superior artist R Kelly remains a villain.

Remind me...what was it Michael Jackson was convicted of?

And you might look up why R Kelly "remains a villain".

How about sticking to the music?

 

[Ulalume!Ulalume!]

Remind me...what was it Michael Jackson was convicted of?

"Remind me...what was it Jimmy Saville was convicted of?"

And you might look up why R Kelly "remains a villain".

"How about sticking to the music?"

 

[Forster]

"How about sticking to the music?"

I did, in my first post. It was you who brought up the extra-musical irrelevance.

(The comparison with Savile is ill-advised: Jackson did at least face a trial and was found not guilty).

 

[Nate Miller]

"Remind me...what was it Jimmy Saville was convicted of?"


"How about sticking to the music?"

hey, if we threw out the music of every degenerate, there would be no pop music left

 

[Nate Miller]

FWIW, the albumn "Thriller" had these big hits on it:

Wanna Be Startin Somethin
Thriller
Beat it!
Billie Jean

nevermind "The Girl is Mine" written with Paul McCartney and Pretty Young Thing

not even counting those two cuts, half that albumn is classic 80s mega hits

 

[Ulalume!Ulalume!]

I did, in my first post. It was you who brought up the extra-musical irrelevance.
(The comparison with Savile is ill-advised: Jackson did at least face a trial and was found not guilty).

Oh Forster, must we really go on some silly back and forth. It'd be much better if you simply laid your ego aside for once and accepted that as per usual I'm right and you're wrong. If you really didn't care for extra-musical digressions, you wouldn't have wasted all our time by making a new post replying to me irrelevantly declaring Michael Jackson was never convicted of anything, when I never even accused him of anything in that post, but rather simply recalled the public response to a big documentary a few years back (there's even a wiki section about the temporary backlash). Anyway, personally I love digressions so long as they circle back to the main topic, which we can achieve by you listing your fave Jacko songs. And please for the love of g-d don't say Earth Song!

hey, if we threw out the music of every degenerate, there would be no pop music left

So true!

 

[Forster]

Oh Forster, must we really go on some silly back and forth.

Well if you will talk such bolleaux, what am I to do?

I own no MJ. I have been known to jig on the dance floor to his late 70s hits...back in the late 70s that is.

 

[John O]

How about U2 - the most overrated garage band of all time.

 

[Luchesi]

first of all, you are nuts. But you are Canadian, so I can understand why hot dance music isnt your thing.

But MJ was a great entertainer. In the Jackson 5, little Mike was awesome. He had James Brown's spin down at age 5. Dont underestimate him as a dancer, either.

Then in the 80s he turned out some serious hits. Thriller was a groundbreaking music video. There's alot to like, its just that you have to like dance music

I get it not liking pop music, but give credit where credit is due. He was an incredible singer and dancer and a great entertainer in the 70s and 80s.

Yes, I suspect that I'm a tad jealous of MJ. How about the rest of you musicians?

 

[Luchesi]

How about U2 - the most overrated garage band of all time.

I used to think that..

 

[Open Lane]

Tried his Thriller album a couple months back. I didn't like much of it at all.

 

[Elgar's Ghost]

How about U2 - the most overrated garage band of all time.

And I wonder where The Edge (God, what a wanky alias that is...) would be had he not cribbed so much from PIL's Keith Levine.

 

[Nate Miller]

Yes, I suspect that I'm a tad jealous of MJ. How about the rest of you musicians?

you bet. I'm not an MJ fan, but his sheer energy is enviable

 

[Sid James]

I grew up with his music. To my generation, he was king of pop. We remember where we were when we heard the news of his death, just as the previous generation did with Elvis.

Apart from that, I fail to see though how he's overrated. I think he was more than just an icon. His body of work speaks for itself, as does his talent in songwriting and ability to harness new technologies of the period. There's the choreography too, and the part he took in making music videos into a new artform.

I think he's also stood the test of time. Ask kids who weren't even born when he died, and they'll know songs like Smooth Criminal, Billie Jean, Bad. They still dance to them.

 

[Merl]

I never liked any of his music, when it came out, and still don't. I can tolerate the odd song of his covered by other artists but really that's about as complimentary as I can be. Thankfully, I rarely have to put up with it these days as the only place I will encounter it is if it's on the TV (I never listen to the radio, anymore - can't stand it). However, since the Leaving Neverland documentary there's definitely been far less exposure of his music on TV these days (it was used extensively before then) but that could also be due to him being dead for many years. It's still there but, to me, nowhere near as prominent as it once was. It certainly didn't affect his music sales, though, which rose after the documentary. Incidentally that's not my reason for not liking his music. It's just not my bag and never has been.

 

[pianozach]

Wow, well that was interesting. I listened to a few songs from Surfs Up. Who woulda thunk. And then a thought popped into my head. I've often wondered what happened to the Beatles that caused them to go from basically stylized 50's bop/simple blues to Sargent Peppers, Rocky Raccoon, etc. Like a total change. And now as I said, the Beach Boys Surfs Up. Total change.

What caused them to make such radical changes? Did they share a producer who "changed for them" and they went along? Did they just get into drugs that opened their minds to other possibilities? Etc. Any music historians here who could shed some light? It doesn't seem like it was just "hey guys let's try something different". Not taking away from them at all, you can't make the kind of music they made without being talented, having a great musical sense, etc.

If you listen to the Beatles' catalog of albums and non-album singles chronologically, it becomes very apparent that it wasn't a sudden total change, but rather an evolution. Of course, it DID happen fairly quickly in terms of time. I mean, progressive (and "Prog") elements were creeping into their music even on the first album (1963) of wonderfully crafted (and well-produced) songs and covers, and just increased incrementally over each successive album. The subject matter, the palette of instruments, the harmonic structures, the genre fusions all increasingly infused their music with a freshness and innovation over a rather short length of time.

From that first album, Introducing the Beatles in January 1963 to their 6th album in December 1965 (Rubber Soul), there certainly IS a dramatic "change" in the scope of their music in only three years, but when you track the progression from album to album, it's a smooth and steady progression. Of course, from Rubber Soul to Revolver (August 1966) to Sgt. Pepper (May 1967) to Magical Mystery Tour (late 1967) to the White Album (November 1968), the upwards curve of innovations in their music and production increased even more. Of course, their musical and production relationship with producer George Martin can't be overlooked.

With the Beach Boys, it was mostly Brian Wilson, who needed no George Martin to imagine settings and arrangements. But after Pet Sounds Brian's brain broke, and Smile was left unfinished, reduced instead to the more bubblegummy Smiley Smile (still, a good album), and after that, well, there was rarely any earth-shattering innovations. Brian was sidelined, and they were one of the first pop music groups to become their own tribute band.

Of course in 1969, the Beatles also hit their own wasteland by attempting to force themselves to create an album on-camera with their "Get Back" album/concert/film project. But they came back strong for a final album created in the Summer of 1969, Abbey Road. By 1967 Martin's mentorship of the Beatles had evolved into a translator of their imaginative wishes, as the band itself became the drivers of the bus production-wise.

And then there was Michael Jackson, an emerging Pop star, talented, inconsequential, popular . . . until he hooked up with Quincy Jones. Three monster hit albums in a row, and Jackson absorbed all of Jones' experience, and took the helm.

I'm also surprised at the shade thrown here at The Carpenters. While they're not really my favorite genre of music, it is well-crafted and intricate. While it was Karen's voice that captivated America, the arrangements were all from the creative mind of her brother Richard. Lush backing vocals, excellent arrangements, wonderful melodies, and first-rate covers of music from other artists.

 

[Sid James]

first of all, you are nuts. But you are Canadian, so I can understand why hot dance music isnt your thing.

But MJ was a great entertainer. In the Jackson 5, little Mike was awesome. He had James Brown's spin down at age 5. Dont underestimate him as a dancer, either.

Then in the 80s he turned out some serious hits. Thriller was a groundbreaking music video. There's alot to like, its just that you have to like dance music

I get it not liking pop music, but give credit where credit is due. He was an incredible singer and dancer and a great entertainer in the 70s and 80s.

That would usually make sense, but it doesn't on this thread where the topic is bashing MJ. In light of that, I'm happy to be contrarian and off topic, even though usually I try to avoid that sort of thing.

 

[Neal]

I'm also surprised at the shade thrown here at The Carpenters. While they're not really my favorite genre of music, it is well-crafted and intricate. While it was Karen's voice that captivated America, the arrangements were all from the creative mind of her brother Richard. Lush backing vocals, excellent arrangements, wonderful melodies, and first-rate covers of music from other artists.

I think the Carpenters deserve a lot more shade than they receive. Their music had a sickeningly sweet quality to it that I find difficult to tolerate.