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Okay, like the mod said, let's continue our discussion about Wagner and nazis...

72754 Views 851 Replies 54 Participants Last post by  mmsbls
This is the place for it, right? Come on, let's have some posts! I don't wanna get banned again, or end up like Paul Best, the little boy who played too close to the railroad tracks.

So what's wrong with pointing out that Wagner and Hitler came from the same flawed Germanic social matrix, without having to "prove" it?

While Wagner didn't literally claim that Germans were superior to all other people, it is apparent that he felt that way on a cultural level. All his art was made within that culture.

I don't recall Wagner ever having said that some other culture was superior to Germans, do you? Can you provide any quotes, or any concrete evidence of this?
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Actually, we are in a thread about Wagner and the Nazi's...

Anyway, my point is that the nazi's might as well have chosen their victims not by deep inner conviction, but because they happened to be around and because there already was quite a lot of public support for antisemitism. A form of opportunism, still found in politics today. This of course does not make the nazi-horror any less terrible, but it does make the 'influencers' role bigger. The Wagner dynasty were such influencers. And R.Wagner was the Godfather of the dynasty, politically committed like no other composer, author of his own libretto's, like no other composer, architect of his own theatre, like no other composer. Without him, the Wagners wouldn't have been anything. But because of him, they could offer the stage to the nazi executioners to do their dirty work, the libretto, the music and the stage were already there.
Whatever Wagner's relatives did, isn't Wagner's responsibility. The same way we could blame Hitler's grandfather for WW2 but we don't. Every person makes their own decisions and Richard Wagner didn't and couldn't make them for Cosima, Winifred, or Siegfried. If you claim (I'm not sure, if you do) that Wagner's librettos to be inherently antisemitic to a greater degree than Sachs' monologue (which I still think isn't antisemitic ;)), give me proof. If that antisemitism in Wagner's operas is only because of an interpretation, I can say that I think I could provide an overview how Il Trovatore could, in similar manner, inspire Nazism or Holocaust. The possibility to interpret something in some particular way doesn't make it immediately an inherent quality of the work itself. I can interpret all kinds of innocent stuff and use it as an excuse or justification for immoral actions. This is my own misuse of the work, not a mistake of the author. Nazis did propaganda knowingly which gives me a reason to suspect that misinterpretations were used knowingly. I doubt neither Hitler nor politicians nowadays sincerely believe everything they say. As I said, I'm not quite sure Hitler had even read Wagner's essay.

You didn't confront what AB wrote:

He wrote a badly-written essay as a contribution that was read by maybe a couple thousand people, who probably didn't understand a lot of it and didn't agree with all of it if they did. It is enough to say he was an antisemite, without over-loading things. He really didn't contribute very much to it himself, personally.

Your statements beg an explanation. How come Wagner contributed so extensively to the antisemitism in the 19th century which, as you say, worked as "inspiration" for the 20th century Nazism, if Wagner's essay was, at least according to what AB wrote, quite unknown?

One more thing about antisemitism of his operas - Wagner, as we know, was extremely talkative and wrote down maybe a bit too many things. Cosima idolised him and wrote down all kinds of things Wagner said or did. Now, if antisemitism had been an important part of his work, why don't we have any explicitly stated proof of it? I doubt he just forgot to mention - there are a lot of insightful detailed comments about the meanings behind his works written in his essays. I don't think we always even ask all the questions which Wagner answers in his essays.
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Actually, we are in a thread about Wagner and the Nazi's...
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, I joined the thread to answer the specific statement that "I think Wagner's "anti-semitism" was of a different kind than the nazis." And so I spent some time explaining that there isn't an "acceptable" versus "nasty" antisemitism: it's all nasty.

If the thread at that point had been genuinely about whether Wagner in some way gave rise to the Nazis, or made them intellectually respectable in some way, my contribution to the thread would have been significantly shorter: "No, and no", because history being what it is and dates being what they are, it's self-evidently obvious those things cannot be true: he'd been dead nearly 50 years before the Nazis came to power.

Anyway, my point is that the nazi's might as well have chosen their victims not by deep inner conviction, but because they happened to be around and because there already was quite a lot of public support for antisemitism. A form of opportunism, still found in politics today.
I don't know whether you are familiar with immediate post-WW1 German history, but nearly everyone on the vaguest ring-wing of politics was going around the country blaming the Jews for (a) losing the war and (b) the hyperinflation which wiped out the middle class's savings. Antisemitism was widespread in pre-WW1 Germany (as it was in France, Russia and, to a slightly lesser extent, in the UK too). The Nazis were just one group who viscerally and with deep inner-conviction blamed the Jews for everything bad that happened to Germany between 1918 and 1933. Of course it was opportunistic, because none of it was true! You wage a war with the UK, Russia and the USA at the same time, you're going to lose the war, Jews or no Jews!

But opportunistic is not antithetical to being deeply and genuinely held.

This of course does not make the nazi-horror any less terrible, but it does make the 'influencers' role bigger. The Wagner dynasty were such influencers. And R.Wagner was the Godfather of the dynasty, politically committed like no other composer, author of his own libretto's, like no other composer, architect of his own theatre, like no other composer. Without him, the Wagners wouldn't have been anything. But because of him, they could offer the stage to the nazi executioners to do their dirty work, the libretto, the music and the stage were already there.
No, we part company again. Can we stick to facts, rather than polemic?

1. Richard Wagner was 40 years dead before the NSDAP was formed
2. Richard Wagner was not politically committed to antisemitism in the 1870-1880 period. He turned down several requests to be listed as a supporter of political antisemitic causes in those years
3. Richard Wagner was an antisemite
4. The only leading Nazi who was a fan of Wagner was Hitler.
5. Hitler's fascination with Wagner was not based on Wagner's antisemitism, which he probably wouldn't have known about, but on the role of the lowly-born hero breathing fresh glory into a decaying empire
6. Hitler gave a thousand tickets away to Bayreuth operas to Nazi party functionaries. Hardly anyone turned up to use them.
7. Parsifal was denounced by the Nazis as "ideologically unacceptable"
8. Hitler gave the Bayreuth festival government assistance and tax exempt status, and treated Winifred's children solicitously
8. Whilst it is known that Wagner's music was played at Dachau concentration camp in the 1933/34 period, when it was being used to 'politically re-educate' non-Nazis, reports that it was played in the 1940s extermination camps are, as yet, completely unsubstantiated.

You can certainly blame Cosima and Winifred for cosying up to the Nazis. I'd have no trouble condemning that. But Wagnerism simply wasn't a major factor in the rise of the Nazis. It was a peculiar side-show that Hitler lapped up, and everyone else pretty much rolled their eyes at.
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Disagree. You don't get a pass for being an antisemite.
I think you're throwing around the term 'antisemite' too freely, and it doesn't really apply in Wagner's case. He simply reflects attitudes which were of his era and before.
Jews and jewishness are not immune to criticism. The Jewish religion is in many ways fundamentalist; it is well-known that they are against homosexuality, and will socially exclude such people.
Your thinking is very absolutist and fundamentalist, and leaves no room for critical examination of the issue. It tends to discourage open discussion. We all know what you think, but you seem to be on a "mission". That kind of absolutist thinking is not conducive to open discussion.

His antisemitism made Wagner an ugly person in 1900, long before WWII made it obvious where those ideas could lead.
Wagner wasn't any "uglier" than anyone else. Everyone is afraid to be honest about racism, and its existence in every human being. It's just a way to label people as "antisemitic" and avoid thinking about it.

Additionally, in the world today, especially in the US, different social factions are fighting for power, so they need to be "regulated" with a good dose of honest, frank, open acknowledgement of social realities which we have tried to obscure in political correctness and fundamentalist liberal thinking.


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^^^ who are you, and how did you hack into MR's account?

This is getting very weird. Is Rod Serling standing by the side somewhere waiting to narrate?
I think you're throwing around the term 'antisemite' too freely, and it doesn't really apply in Wagner's case. He simply reflects attitudes which were of his era and before. Jews and jewishness are not immune to criticism.
They are -or should be- immune from criticism as an inherent, degenerate, genetic threat, which is what antisemitism is. You want to discuss the current state of Israel, or how you are not keen on Talmudic thinking in relation to Deuteronomy 18, let's have that debate. But neither you, nor Wagner, get to go around saying "we naturally have an instinctual aversion to Jewishness" without that being called out for what it is: group-hate, not informed, thoughtful criticism.

The Jewish religion is in many ways fundamentalist; it is well-known that they are against homosexuality, and will socially exclude such people.
Fundamentalist, against homosexuality, exclusionary towards such. Are you talking about the Republican party? [/S]

Wagner wasn't criticising Judaism because it had an old-fashioned attitude towards homosexuality (and you need to read up on Reform Judaism). He actually wasn't really criticizing anything very much, because that requires critical faculties of reason and deliberative thought. He was expressing an instinctive abhorrence of Jews. End of story, and and it would be better if you'd stop trying to make excuses for it.

Your thinking is very absolutist and fundamentalist, and leaves no room for critical examination of the issue.
Funny. I have spent the past 7 pages of these forum thread pages doing nothing but critically examining the matter of Wagner's antisemitism. You need to think up some better one-liners, I think.

It tends to discourage open discussion. We all know what you think, but you seem to be on a "mission". That kind of absolutist thinking is not conducive to open discussion.
Well, you're clearly in to twisting facts to suit your argument. I don't grant the premise of your statement, so I don't agree with your conclusion. If you had any substantive, intellectual points to make, I'd listen. But you don't. You simply assert, devoid of fact or insight.

Wagner wasn't any "uglier" than anyone else.
Show me, please, via quotation where I said he was. Clue: I never did. I said he was antisemitic and antisemitsm is an ugly trait. I made no comparisons about it or him being uglier than some other antisemite. You're the one pushing the line that there are sort-of, vaguely acceptable forms of antisemitism, or at the least that there are different types of antisemitism. But if one doesn't believe in a hierarchy of antisemitism (as I don't), then it's impossible, ab initio, to start saying one antisemite is 'uglier' than another. Stop making things up and saying I said them, please.

Everyone is afraid to be honest about racism and its existence in every human being.
You're being very absolutist and fundamentalist with such assertions. The irony!

It's just a way to label people as "antisemitic" and avoid thinking about it.
I'm not labelling "people" as antisemitic. I've labelled Wagner as antisemitic. And I've spent 7 pages discussing the nature and extent of his antisemitism, down to going to the trouble of re-translating "Jewishness in Music" so I could understand his thoughts on the matter better.
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Well, as I think I've mentioned before, I joined the thread to answer the specific statement that "I think Wagner's "anti-semitism" was of a different kind than the nazis." And so I spent some time explaining that there isn't an "acceptable" versus "nasty" antisemitism: it's all nasty.

If the thread at that point had been genuinely about whether Wagner in some way gave rise to the Nazis, or made them intellectually respectable in some way, my contribution to the thread would have been significantly shorter: "No, and no", because history being what it is and dates being what they are, it's self-evidently obvious those things cannot be true: he'd been dead nearly 50 years before the Nazis came to power.

I don't know whether you are familiar with immediate post-WW1 German history, but nearly everyone on the vaguest ring-wing of politics was going around the country blaming the Jews for (a) losing the war and (b) the hyperinflation which wiped out the middle class's savings. Antisemitism was widespread in pre-WW1 Germany (as it was in France, Russia and, to a slightly lesser extent, in the UK too). The Nazis were just one group who viscerally and with deep inner-conviction blamed the Jews for everything bad that happened to Germany between 1918 and 1933. Of course it was opportunistic, because none of it was true! You wage a war with the UK, Russia and the USA at the same time, you're going to lose the war, Jews or no Jews!

But opportunistic is not antithetical to being deeply and genuinely held.

No, we part company again. Can we stick to facts, rather than polemic?

1. Richard Wagner was 40 years dead before the NSDAP was formed
2. Richard Wagner was not politically committed to antisemitism in the 1870-1880 period. He turned down several requests to be listed as a supporter of political antisemitic causes in those years
3. Richard Wagner was an antisemite
4. The only leading Nazi who was a fan of Wagner was Hitler.
5. Hitler's fascination with Wagner was not based on Wagner's antisemitism, which he probably wouldn't have known about, but on the role of the lowly-born hero breathing fresh glory into a decaying empire
6. Hitler gave a thousand tickets away to Bayreuth operas to Nazi party functionaries. Hardly anyone turned up to use them.
7. Parsifal was denounced by the Nazis as "ideologically unacceptable"
8. Hitler gave the Bayreuth festival government assistance and tax exempt status, and treated Winifred's children solicitously
8. Whilst it is known that Wagner's music was played at Dachau concentration camp in the 1933/34 period, when it was being used to 'politically re-educate' non-Nazis, reports that it was played in the 1940s extermination camps are, as yet, completely unsubstantiated.

You can certainly blame Cosima and Winifred for cosying up to the Nazis. I'd have no trouble condemning that. But Wagnerism simply wasn't a major factor in the rise of the Nazis. It was a peculiar side-show that Hitler lapped up, and everyone else pretty much rolled their eyes at.
Well, we might as well agree to disagree.

History isn't a matter of mathematics and also it is a bit tiresome how you and others keep saying that R.Wagner was dead long before Hitler rose to power and that Cosima and Winifred are not building on R.Wagners ideology. Who else could be held responsible for providing this ideology and for providing Bayreuth and for providing a following, consisting of German's establishment? Maybe not many people read Wagner's essay, but it was crystal clear from he beginning that the Wagner dynasty was in favour of Hitler's nazi ideology, which consisted not only from antisemitism, but mostly from Germanic nationalism, of which Wagner was a huge advocate.

And as you probably know, Winifred was already Hitler's friend before he wrote 'Mein Kampf' while in prison, according to sources she even provided him with the writing paper. So, you don't think she and Hitler ever talked about anything?

The other string in this thread is the supposed kindness and naivety or childishness of Richard Wagner. There are also sources about the kindness of Winifred and most probably even Hitler himself could be quite friendly, like to the young Wagner kids who would call him 'Onkel Wolf'.

At the end, you suddenly start talking about Wagnerism. Well, I truly doubt what this is. A polemic attempt? Wagner's ideas and his heritage was not at all original. He borrowed everything and mixed it together in a blend of semi-intellectual thoughts, which some of us mistake for genius insights. Let's be clear, Harry Potter is far more original than the entire line of thought in Wagner's libretto's. The everlasting responsibility of Wagner is his megalomaniac but troubled attempts to shape a Germanic society, of which nationalism and antisemitism were a part. The equally megalomaniac and troubled Hitler would shape his Germanic society after similar lines and would only put his words into action. There was a clear connection between Hitler and the Wagner dynasty, at the time when Hitler would pen down his book. Of course, Wagner and Hitler weren't the only ones with sympathy for these ideas, many around the world could and still do relate to them. Both however did an extreme effort to bring their ideas forward, probably in an ever human attempt to reach immortality.

And, hopefully to finish this back and forth discussion, Wagner and everything around him will forever remain an object of controversy, rightfully so. Let's not try to solve this controversy in this thread.
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...neither you, nor Wagner, get to go around saying "we naturally have an instinctual aversion to Jewishness" without that being called out for what it is: group-hate, not informed, thoughtful criticism.
No, I think "racism" is inherent, a universal. We naturally have an instinctual aversion to people who are different, or who present a collective identity in order to struggle for social power.

Wagner...was expressing an instinctive abhorrence of Jews.
No, that's an oversimplification.

You're the one pushing the line that there are sort-of, vaguely acceptable forms of antisemitism, or at the least that there are different types of antisemitism. But if one doesn't believe in a hierarchy of antisemitism (as I don't), then it's impossible, ab initio, to start saying one antisemite is 'uglier' than another.
No; your problem is that you don't think YOU are racist. The "Devil" is in you. Racism per se is universal. You must deal with it in yourself, instead of "demonizing" figures like Wagner. Black people would not like to hear your spiel that you are "not racist" while demonizing others.
Well, we might as well agree to disagree.

History isn't a matter of mathematics and also it is a bit tiresome how you and others keep saying that R.Wagner was dead long before Hitler rose to power and that Cosima and Winifred are not building on R.Wagners ideology. Who else could be held responsible for providing this ideology and for providing Bayreuth and for providing a following, consisting of German's establishment?
What ideology? Seriously: I read the guy's pamphlet on Jewishness in Music and there's stuff-all ideology in it. He doesn't like Jewish appearances, speech or music; he thinks they've reduced great art to a matter of money; he hates Meyerbeer for coining it in. End of. There's no great philosophy of Judaism or Jewishness. He simply doesn't like 'em.

And in that, he was part of a general 19th Century movement.

There is no "Wagnerism" of which Cosima and Winifred were "prophets". They were two separate people who came to their own conclusions -and they were a lot more virulent about their antisemitism than Richard ever was.

Maybe not many people read Wagner's essay, but it was crystal clear from he beginning that the Wagner dynasty was in favour of Hitler's nazi ideology, which consisted not only from antisemitism, but mostly from Germanic nationalism, of which Wagner was a huge advocate.
Context, please. Germany was only created a nation state in 1871. Of course Wagner was a German nationalist: it was the only thing being discussed politically at the time. And there's nothing intrinsically or particularly nasty about German nationalism of the 19th Century in any event. Italy had a similarly nationalist politics in the 1860s, for pretty much the same reason (end of little states, formation of one unified Kingdom).

And as you probably know, Winifred was already Hitler's friend before he wrote 'Mein Kampf' while in prison, according to sources she even provided him with the writing paper. So, you don't think she and Hitler ever talked about anything?
My point is that it doesn't matter whether she baked apple pie for him and delivered it to the Landsberg jail cell in her private Rolls Royce. She isn't Richard Wagner! And Richard Wagner had no influence on her infatuation with Hitler. For "mathematical" reasons you dislike. And Hitler fawned on the Wagners for precisely the same reasons I bicycled to The Red House in Aldeburgh in my summer vacation in 1983. It's called hero worship, and if the hero is dead, you have tea with Peter Pears instead. It's as close as you're going to get to the real deal.

There was a clear connection between Hitler and the Wagner dynasty, at the time when Hitler would pen down his book.
Obviously and not disputed. But you're trying to make that Richard's 'legacy' or 'fault' or 'responsibility', when it's none of those things. Winifred died in 1980ish, I think. She still called Hitler Unser Seliger Adolf (our blessed Adolf). The woman was off her rocker and the specific knowledge of the gas chambers didn't mitigate her infatuation with him one iota. One hundred years after Richard died; 35 years after the liberation of Auschwitz; that woman's dance with Hitler had nothing to do with being a representative of some Richard Wagner clan and everything to do with her own, perverted sense of values.

And, hopefully to finish this back and forth discussion, Wagner and everything around him will forever remain an object of controversy, rightfully so. Let's not try to solve this controversy in this thread.
I'm not trying to make that controversy go away or anything, but I think it fair to try to describe the rational constraints within which it can reasonably be said to be a controversy.

No-one doubts Wagner had an unpleasant streak about him a mile wide. No-one doubts that his descendants and survivors smooched their way up to the Nazis. But rationality surely puts the second event outside the reasonable influence of the first.
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At the end, you suddenly start talking about Wagnerism. Well, I truly doubt what this is. A polemic attempt?
I just wanted to deal with that specific point separately. I mentioned "Wagnerism" as a short-hand way of describing "everything associated with Richard Wagner and his Bayreuth festival". I was simply saying that Richard Wagner and Bayreuth weren't significant factors in the rise of the Nazis, though Hitler was a huge fan. That's all. It was merely a shortcut, not a polemical device.
Well, we might as well agree to disagree.
Maybe not many people read Wagner's essay, but it was crystal clear from he beginning that the Wagner dynasty was in favour of Hitler's nazi ideology, which consisted not only from antisemitism, but mostly from Germanic nationalism, of which Wagner was a huge advocate.
In his book Wagner and Philosophy, Bryan Magee tells us that:

"Those of my readers who know Wagner only by his reputation may be surprised at the portrait I have presented so far of a left-wing revolutionary writing the libretto of The Ring while in political exile in Switzerland. The image of Wagner that floats about at large in our culture does not accord with this. He is thought of as quintessentially right-wing, a pillar of the German establishment, jingoistically nationalistic, a racialist and an anti-semite, a sort of proto-Nazi."

Magee goes on to succinctly explain the discrepancy between the populist stereotypes about Wagner, and his own portrait of Wagner as a liberal revolutionary, by explaining the background to European revolutionary nationalism in the nineteenth century:

"There are many reasons for the discrepancy. One is that certain attitudes possess inescapably right-wing associations for those of us who are embarking on the twenty-first century that did not have these associations in the nineteenth century. Nationalism is an outstanding example."

During Wagner's time, nationalism had none of the right-wing associations it has today:

"Throughout Central and Eastern Europe at the time when Wagner was young, nationalism was one of the great left-of-centre causes. This was notably so in Germany and Italy, neither of which had yet achieved unification. Political conservatives wanted to preserve the separateness of the smaller states that still existed, each with its own ruling elite and, usually, archaic institutions; radicals wanted to sweep away these little anciens regimes and create a unitary modern state with representative government. So the causes of modernity, representative institutions and individual liberty all marched together under the banner of national unification."

Magee rightly concludes:

"Verdi was as prominently active in their support in Italy as Wagner was in Germany. So while it is true that Wagner was always a German nationalist, it is not true that German nationalism was at that time a right-wing cause. Similarly with anti-semitism."

In the nineteenth century, the majority of European states were totalitarian regimes ruled by monarchs. In 1848 a republican pro-democratic revolution erupted in Germany, and the following year, in 1849, Richard Wagner, took up arms in the Dresden pro-democracy revolutionary uprisingalongside his friend Mikhail Bakunin (a key founder of Socialist Anarchism).

Later on in his life, Wagner openly denounced Bismarckian imperialist expansionism, dismissing Bismarck as the mere "caricature of a strong man" (Cosima Diaries 8th February, 1881). Wagner became an admirer of Constantin Frantz's views on European federalism, with independent nation-states loosely united under a constitution based on that of America. Wagner published an essay by Frantz in the July 1879 edition of the Bayreuther Blätter harshly criticising a Germany united under the "pointy tip of the Prussian sabre". Even as a late in his life as 1880 Wagner can still be seen to be writing favourably about socialism.

The view of Wagner as a German nationalist must also be tempered by a study of what Wagner actually wrote on the subject, even well after the 1848 revolutions. Long after the failure of the pro-democracy uprisings, since he only ever saw revolution end in failure, or even reversed under counter-revolutionaries like Louis Napoleon, Wagner had clearly grown weary of the idea of armed revolution. Under the influence of the Buddhist influenced Schopenhauer, he later became staunchly pacifist, an anti-vivisectionist vegetarian, while remaining a socialist who overtly denounced blatant nationalistic patriotism until the very end. This might come as a surprise to those used to the cartoon caricatures of Wagner that are stock-standard, but Wagner writes an essay entitled Concerning the State and Religion (1864) dedicated to King Ludwig of Bavaria, in which Wagner goes on something of a Wahn monologue of his own. Wagner writes:

"In political life, delusion [Wahn] expresses itself namely as patriotism. ... Injustice and violence against other states and peoples has hitherto been patriotism's only true manifestation of force."

The reason that we keep finding these insinuations that German nationalism had always been a proto-Nazi right-wing movement is because of the blindly unquestioning acceptance of Nazi propaganda which claimed that their movement was the culmination and pinnacle of the entirety of German history: Germans throughout all of history had it in their Blood and Destiny to be Nazis. To be a true German was to be a born Nazi, and to be a Nazi was to be German. A German who was not a Nazi, but instead a socialist, a pacifist, gay, a feminist, pro-democratic, or at all left-wing was, therefore, not a real "German" at all-but a Jew or one of their Judeo-Bolshevik co-conspirators.

This question of German national identity is one that is eloquently tackled by Sir Richard J. Evans in this highly recommended talk:

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AbsolutelyBaching has a difficult task; he's trying to condemn Wagner as antisemitic, while at the same time completely removing him from responsibility in the later direction of Germany and nazis, as if one had nothing to do with the other. Apparently, he doesn't believe in cause and effect, or in overarching, far-reaching archetypes.

Actually, he sounds like a Wagnerite in disguise. :lol:
AbsolutelyBaching has a difficult task; he's trying to condemn Wagner as antisemitic, while at the same time completely removing him from responsibility in the later direction of Germany and nazis, as if one had nothing to do with the other. Apparently, he doesn't believe in cause and effect, or in overarching, far-reaching archetypes.

Actually, he sounds like a Wagnerite in disguise. :lol:
Look, if I had voted Republican in 2016, I think it fair to lay the responsibility for the subsequent disasters of the Trump administration at my door. But if I'd voted Republican in 1860, I'd have been voting for freeing the slaves (I'm simplifying the argument a little) and you'd have no right to curse me for Trumpism for having voted for Lincoln.

I don't therefore have a difficult task at all. I condemn Wagner as antisemitic, because he was. But in this he merely voiced a feeling that was common throughout Europe in the 19th Century, and has roots which go back millennia. That he voiced it is bad enough. He should have known better. And I condemn him unequivocally for doing so.

But I'm not going to blame him for what the Nazis did with their antisemitic feelings, since the one has nothing at all to do with the other.

Had Wagner stood out in German history for his antisemitism in the way that, for example, Bismarck stood out for his imperialistic nationalism, then the situation would be quite different. If he had been an 'intellectual beacon' for antisemitism; if he'd given it a quasi-philosophical underpinning, as Hitler was to do in Mein Kampf, then yeah: you could at that point pin the eventual developments in antisemitic practise on him.

But he didn't. He could barely articulate his own antisemitism as anything other than annoyance at the commercial success of Meyerbeer. There was no profound philosophy of antisemitism he invented or developed. He just gave pamphlet expression to (nasty) ideas that were fairly prevalent at the time.

And Hitler didn't develop his own antisemitsm from any Wagnerish prototype philosophy. He took exactly the same anti-Jewish feelings Wagner had expressed, combined them with a quasi-philosophy of 'Aryanism', and added a sprinkling of controlling the levers of state and an industrial-miliary complex... ingredients that Wagner himself never had access to.

So I don't have a problem, because whilst I certainly believe in cause and effect, I don't think Lincoln caused Trump. That bow is too long to draw!
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AbsolutelyBaching has a difficult task; he's trying to condemn Wagner as antisemitic, while at the same time completely removing him from responsibility in the later direction of Germany and nazis, as if one had nothing to do with the other. Apparently, he doesn't believe in cause and effect, or in overarching, far-reaching archetypes.

Actually, he sounds like a Wagnerite in disguise. :lol:
Isn't it quite clear that we cannot equate Wagner's antisemitism with Hitler's Nazism? On what basis can we say that Wagner should be held responsible for Nazism? This would mean that Wagner should also be held accountable for everything contemporary Neo-Nazis do, although I doubt most of them are even aware of that. This isn't simply sensible thing to say if Wagner's connection was as indirect as it was.
[snip lots of good stuff!]
I think you nail the nationalism argument very nicely -and the comparison of Wagner/German Nationalism to Verdi/Italian Nationalism is a good one that had quite slipped my mind.

People forget that creating a single, unified Germany was considered the first step in a progressive social agenda at the time -one where aristocratic little potentates couldn't block social progress (see 1848). It wasn't a right-wing plot back then!
Isn't it quite clear that we cannot equate Wagner's antisemitism with Hitler's Naziism? On what basis can we say that Wagner should be held responsible for Naziism? This would mean that Wagner should also be held accountable for everything contemporary Neo-Nazis do, although I doubt most of them are even aware of that. This isn't simply sensible thing to say if Wagner's connection was as indirect as it was.
Did you know that (and this is true) between 1933 and 1939, there were more than 50 productions of The Merchant of Venice in Nazi Germany? It was one of the Nazi hierarchy's favourite plays of Shakespeare (for obviously antisemitic reasons, thank you Shylock). A special performance of it was put on in Vienna in 1943 specially to celebrate the occasion of Vienna become 'Judenrein' (rid of Jews).

Clearly, Shakespeare was a proto-Nazi and everything to do with Stratford-upon-Avon was just a prelude to the Nuremberg rallies. [/S]
Oh, this is becoming annoying.

Just a few things:
- Winifred would have been a nobody if she wasn't leading the Wagner-dynasty.
- R. Wagners ideology was troubled and vague and might as well be deemed absolute nonsensical, but he sure made continuous attempts to create an ideology, which contained aspects of Germanic nationalism and antisemitism
- A. Hitler: exactly the same
- So, R. Wagner and A. Hitler were in the same ballpark
- Of all actions of the nazi's, the holocaust was of course the most horrible, but they did a lot more than 'just' this. I guess it s possible to say that antisemitism wasn't the main cause of the nazi's.
- If any regime or person is supposedly left or right wing, is not of any significance. At the extremes, left and right meet in similar totalitarian and terrorist regimes.
- Antisemitism is all over the place throughout the ages. The pope ordering Crusades was the same as Hitler ordering the Endlosung. The level of industrialization, the location and efficiency was different, the basic idea was the same.
- In many countries, like for instance the UK and the US, you could find many antisemites. The nazi's could only be successful at their cause, because almost everyone cooperated in many countries. Jews who managed to flee to the US or the UK, didn't exactly receive a warm bath.

AB, what are you trying to twist? Why are you so desperately trying to prove that R. Wagner was a nationalist and an antisemite, but had absolutely nothing to do with the person who admired him and would take these vague ideas and the opportunity to order their specific execution??
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Did you know that (and this is true) between 1933 and 1939, there were more than 50 productions of The Merchant of Venice in Nazi Germany? It was one of the Nazi hierarchy's favourite plays of Shakespeare (for obviously antisemitic reasons, thank you Shylock). A special performance of it was put on in Vienna in 1943 specially to celebrate the occasion of Vienna become 'Judenrein' (rid of Jews).

Clearly, Shakespeare was a proto-Nazi and everything to do with Stratford-upon-Avon was just a prelude to the Nuremberg rallies. [/S]
Phew, I didn't know that :eek: ! This is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind when I wrote about deliberate misinterpretation for the sake of propaganda... Even if antisemitic readings exist of both Shakespeare and Wagner, I definitely don't support using art (particularly Shakespeare!) as a propaganda tool because that lowers the art to some mere political game.
AB, what are you trying to twist? Why are you so desperately trying to prove that R. Wagner was a nationalist and an antisemite, but had absolutely nothing to do with the person who admired him and would take these vague ideas and the opportunity to order their specific execution??
There's no twisting in pointing out the obvious: that Wagner's antisemitism and nationalism are complex issues on their own, and wholly seperate from Hitler's admiration for Wagner. Hitler was not "executing" Wagner's ideas, his own nationalism and antisemitism had their own origins that had nothing to do with Wagner. He was simply a great fan of Wagner's music dramas.
I won't chop your post up too much, so I'll reply in red, if I can manage the formatting.

Oh, this is becoming annoying.

Just a few things:
- Winifred would have been a nobody if she wasn't leading the Wagner-dynasty. Agreed
- R. Wagners ideology was troubled and vague and might as well be deemed absolute nonsensical, but he sure made continuous attempts to create an ideology, which contained aspects of Germanic nationalism and antisemitism Disagree. He had no ideology. He was antisemitic (which a lot of people were) and he was a nationalist (as most people were). He invented no independent ideology worth the name
- A. Hitler: exactly the same Agreed
- So, R. Wagner and A. Hitler were in the same ballpark Disagree, because your point about Wagner fails
- Of all actions of the nazi's, the holocaust was of course the most horrible, but they did a lot more than 'just' this. I guess it s possible to say that antisemitism wasn't the main cause of the nazi's. I think poisonous nationalism and antisemitism are the twin hallmarks of Mein Kampf and of nazi rule from 1933-39. I think Antisemitism was a substantial part of their program.
- If any regime or person is supposedly left or right wing, is not of any significance. At the extremes, left and right meet in similar totalitarian and terrorist regimes. Agreed
- Antisemitism is all over the place throughout the ages. The pope ordering Crusades was the same as Hitler ordering the Endlosung. The level of industrialization, the location and efficiency was different, the basic idea was the same. Agree in principle, but comparing the crusades to the nazis is a bit daft: you weren't allowed to fight back during the Final Solution!
- In many countries, like for instance the UK and the US, you could find many antisemites. The nazi's could only be successful at their cause, because almost everyone cooperated in many countries. Jews who managed to flee to the US or the UK, didn't exactly receive a warm bath. Agreed. I've said so many times on these very pages. Antisemitism is widespread to this day. No argument there.
So now the next bit is where you start to get a bit personal and I'll take the trouble to respond to you at length, but if you're going to keep saying 'you're twisting things', you and I part company. I am making logical deductions from known facts, twisting nothing in the process.

AB, what are you trying to twist? Why are you so desperately trying to prove that R. Wagner was a nationalist and an antisemite, but had absolutely nothing to do with the person who admired him and would take these vague ideas and the opportunity to order their specific execution??
1. Wagner was a nationalist. I think we agree on that (though I think you and I have a different idea of what 19th Century German nationalism really meant: in 1870, it wasn't a bad, right-wing, threat to anyone, but a symbol of social progress eagerly endorsed by those on the left wing of politics)
2. Wagner was an antisemite. I think we agree on that.
3. Wagner had nothing to do with someone who was born 6 years after he died. For some reason I cannot fathom, you cannot take this plain, simple statement of "mathematical" truth at face value.

So what am I twisting? I don't really need to prove, desperately or otherwise, that he was a nationalist, since we agree he was. I don't need to prove he was an antisemite, because we agree on that too. And just checking dates mean I don't have to prove he had absolutely nothing to do with Hitler. It's a physical impossibility -and one you can only get round if you start claiming that what Cosima, Siegfried and Winifred got up to several decades later is part of some Richard Wagner ideology or philosophy. I just don't buy that part of your argument, I'm afraid. What I do today reflects neither good nor bad on my late father, for he is (sadly) out of the picture and has been for 30 years.

No twisting on my part is either necessary or actually taking place. I'm just stating facts.
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^ & ^^

Thx for your constructive reactions to my somewhat destructive remarks:tiphat:

I think however that our different views now become clear.

R Wagner was not original in his views and also not very intellectual. Nonetheless, my view is that Wagner stood for something, he was politically engaged. He tried to shape an ideology, be it not a very original one, which was based on nationalism and monstrous antisemitism. AB thinks there is no Wagner ideology, I think there is.

I think there is a Wagner dynasty with the object to conserve Wagners legacy. This was R Wagners own idea, to make sure he was not forgotten. Books are written about this troubled dynasty. It is beyond me how AB and OC keep reasoning that the connection between the ideas of Wagner and the loving personal connection between the Wagner dynasty and nazi leader and ideologist A.Hitler should be totally disconnected from Wagner himself, as he was not alive anymore. Is it because they cannot listen to the music anymore if they would accept the obvious? When Wagner said that Jews should be burned and about half a century later one of his followers starts organizing this, while playing Wagner's music, while being lovingly taken care of by the Wagner dynasty, you absolutely cannot defend that Wagner has nothing to do with this, because he was already dead. This part of reasoning to me sounds like twist and bend. It remains a choice to follow or condemn a controversial ideology or a religion. But it cannot be said that the spiritual leader of any ideology or religion has nothing to do with what his disciples make of it. Hitler himself probably didn't kill any Jew, but he damn well needs to be held co-responsible. The same goes for Wagner.

But we will probably never all agree on this.
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