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Their opinion is only worthless to those who deem it worthless. The fact that people who love fugues don't care about the opinions of those who dislike (or don't understand) fugues is more of the same like-minded people sharing similar subjective opinions phenomena. One can say this about any music, any genre, or any specific feature of any music. Most who love country music also don't care about the opinions of people who don't love country music and deem such opinions useless to establishing the canon of country music.
I said nothing about those who dislike fugues. Lots of people who don't particularly like fugues are capable of descernment in evaluating them. Nice try.

It's not like-minded versus differing. It's minded versus mindless. Do I get points for concision?
 

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I said nothing about those who dislike fugues. Lots of people who don't particularly like fugues are capable of descernment in evaluating them. Nice try.

It's not like-minded versus differing. It's minded versus unminded. Do I get points for concision?
People who don't like fugues are just discerning the features that other people like about them. Nice try.

So now everyone who disagrees with you or the majority or the experts are "unminded?" OK, then.
 

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I don't know what you mean a "red herring." That such a thing happens is demonstrable fact. How much it generalizes to all people doing it on some level is debatable, sure. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.
It's a hypothetical quote from a hypothetical individual. Maybe it's not so much a red herring as simply irrelevant to the discussion here. No one in the thread tied their identity to classical music or denigrated pop because of its assumed primary audience.

I wasn't using them to demonstrate anything specific beyond the general "skepticism" I mentioned.
And I remain skeptical of appealing to "unconscious motivations" that can't really be known.
 

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It's a hypothetical quote from a hypothetical individual. Maybe it's not so much a red herring as simply irrelevant to the discussion here. No one in the thread tied their identity to classical music or denigrated pop because of its assumed primary audience.

And I remain skeptical of appealing to "unconscious motivations" that can't really be known.
If I wanted to take the time I could find such quotes from people on here, especially in the non-classical forum (probably in that "The Death of Pop Harmony" thread). Besides, I was not even limiting the example to what I've read on here. Such things are uttered not infrequently on pretty much any site where music is discussed. If I had a crystal ball and knew I would be discussing this with a skeptic maybe I would've noted each and every instance of it so I could provide you with ample evidence that it's not just a hypothetical but something that actually happens.

What is known is that unconscious motivations exist and affect everyone just by virtue of being human. If you want a list of them you can search "list of cognitive biases," find the Wikipedia link, and then research the citations if you want. Daniel Kahnemann won a Nobel for his work in cognitive biases in the field of economics and his Thinking, Fast and Slow is a great laymen's read on the subject. The only thing that's not known is the exact extent to which they affect every individual as it relates to any given subject, but I would be shocked if anyone is completely unbiased in pretty much any aspect of life.
 

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I said nothing about those who dislike fugues. Lots of people who don't particularly like fugues are capable of descernment in evaluating them. Nice try.

It's not like-minded versus differing. It's minded versus mindless. Do I get points for concision?
Anyone with a working set of ears can "evaluate" music. Certainly if a mindless listener loves a piece, it's given as evidence for its universality and appeal toward unknown aesthetic truths.


Mindless/minded here seem simply like differences in one's approach to art. No special education is required to listen, or to say "ehh I don't like that".
 

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To expand on that, I think the "ability" for one to differentiate between classical music one likes or dislikes isn't based on learnedness, it's based on what I'd generally call "affinity". This can be learned or just come naturally, but one has to like the style of music for aesthetic comparisons to really be possible - otherwise you get that classic phrase of someone who doesn't like a genre of music, be it classical, rap, electronic, or disco: "it all sounds the same to me".


If we "reject" or "discount" someone's opinion because they have no affinity towards classical music, it has nothing to do with education, knowledge, or intellectual rigor - it's because someone with zero affinity for a genre of music has placed themselves outside the generally accepted audience for that music.
 

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Many people can't satisfactorily evaluate pieces (satisfactorily for themselves) (it's not their fault) so they join a consensus comprised of various subjective reasons that are easy to understand and admire.

You can't evaluate the art of Portuguese poetry if you don't know Portuguese.
People are free to evaluate or to not evaluate anything in the arts. What if someone chooses not to attempt to evaluate Portuguese poetry for any one of a number of reasons--indifferent to or hates poetry, or Portugal, or the Portuguese or for any other reason why Portuguese poetry is of no interest to them (it never entered their head), I have no interest in Bulgarian poetry, And I certainly do not worry for a second that I can't satisfactorily evaluate Bulgarian poetry. Why should I? Who does? Is it your notion that all must evaluate everything in the arts? In music, I am free to evaluate anything I choose to. Or not. Satisfactorily. I still can't understand why the absence of a template agreed to by a peer group, is so unnerving to some. "Taste Exchanging" and social bonding and the threat of its withdrawal are one factor; another is akin to a quasi-religious yearning for the comfort and certainty of received dogma.

So, Luchesi, I agree with your observation that many people seek shelter in subjective reasons.. But there is a larger population who, to them, can satisfactorily evaluate music, believing their evaluation is objective. But actually it again is pure subjectivism, Bonding, polling, and the power of authority figures.
 

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..But there is a larger population who, to them, can satisfactorily evaluate music, believing their evaluation is objective. But actually it again is pure subjectivism, Bonding, polling, and the power of authority figures.
Subjectivity is always the beginning of an individual’s attraction to, enjoyment of and evaluation of the arts, but it is doesn’t define the middle or the end. You’re stuck at the beginning.
 

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Subjectivity is always the beginning of an individual’s attraction to, enjoyment of and evaluation of the arts, but it is doesn’t define the middle or the end. You’re stuck at the beginning.
What are the middle and end?

I can imagine that you might answer something like "learning" but then everything that is learned either has no effect on the subjective experience or it affects the subjective experience.
 

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Of course they do. They tend to be manipulative and will self-justify to the extent they can get what they want by doing so.
You don't have to be a psychopath to be manipulative. We all self-justify, but assuming we're talking about justifying "wrong" behaiour, I think we just get on and do it. Well, I sometimes do and sometimes don't...

...maybe I'm a psychopath. :unsure:
 

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People are free to evaluate or to not evaluate anything in the arts. What if someone chooses not to attempt to evaluate Portuguese poetry for any one of a number of reasons--indifferent to or hates poetry, or Portugal, or the Portuguese or for any other reason why Portuguese poetry is of no interest to them (it never entered their head), I have no interest in Bulgarian poetry, And I certainly do not worry for a second that I can't satisfactorily evaluate Bulgarian poetry. Why should I? Who does? Is it your notion that all must evaluate everything in the arts? In music, I am free to evaluate anything I choose to. Or not. Satisfactorily. I still can't understand why the absence of a template agreed to by a peer group, is so unnerving to some. "Taste Exchanging" and social bonding and the threat of its withdrawal are one factor; another is akin to a quasi-religious yearning for the comfort and certainty of received dogma.

So, Luchesi, I agree with your observation that many people seek shelter in subjective reasons.. But there is a larger population who, to them, can satisfactorily evaluate music, believing their evaluation is objective. But actually it again is pure subjectivism, Bonding, polling, and the power of authority figures.
My advice is for teenagers, who are more easily lead astray, and it is a concern if you look at the big picture.
Anyway, I've had an obstinate teenager tell me I want to be “free” to learn what I want to learn, and anyway my music is just as good as your Beethoven stuff. Teenagers have good reason to be rebellious, whether they know it or not.

I should be adult about it, but I don't want to help him have something valuable when he’s 50 or 60. I would be tilting against the whole culture of creeping relativism, and it's just too pervasive. Even a kid like that has gotten a whiff of it. Any chance to be lazy about anything and they'll take it, because they've been designed by natural selection to conserve their energy for important survival things. I obviously don't take it personally I'm just saddened by the whole situation. Adults should know better, but they’re also too young to have had the opportunities that used to be available in the 1950s and 60s.

I might be a rare person but I've never bonded with anyone over CM. We did bond over the Beatles’ songs as they came out and we were trying to work them out on the friends’ pianos. Good times! We all outgrew this bonding, but I continued on with music.
I've always thought that polls were quite silly. What does any poll have to do with me? Popularity lists not based on objective analyses, again, you quickly outgrow such popularisms once you learn about music.

Authority figures, like music theorists?
 

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I don't think teenagers are lazy. In fact, everything these days is career-oriented. Kids used to do things like extra-curricular activities because they had an interest in them, but now the emphasis is on how good it'll look on a college application, with the goal of turning a college education from a prestige school into a career.

If you want kids to have interest in arts as a pleasure activity, you need to give them more leisure time, not less.
 

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^^^^@Luchesi: "I might be a rare person but I've never bonded with anyone over CM."

Over the years I have bonded with people over CM. With your passion for it, I am surprised that you have not. I have several times had friends tell me about something new that they just heard (and bought), and have immediately benefited by that.
 

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I said nothing about those who dislike fugues. Nice try. It's not like-minded versus differing. It's minded versus unminded. Do I get points for concision?
People who don't like fugues are just discerning the features that other people like about them. Nice try.

So now everyone who disagrees with you or the majority or the experts are "unminded?" OK, then.
I said that people who don't know what a fugue is are not credible judges of fugal writing, just as illiterates are not good literary critics. The issue of agreement with me or anyone else didn't come up. You seem to be having trouble following this argument(?)
 

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Anyone with a working set of ears can "evaluate" music. Certainly if a mindless listener loves a piece, it's given as evidence for its universality and appeal toward unknown aesthetic truths.


Mindless/minded here seem simply like differences in one's approach to art. No special education is required to listen, or to say "ehh I don't like that".
It does sound condescending to say that people who don't appreciate what the objectivists are saying will probably never get it unless they put in a lot of work and read some books about musical analysis. It is a sad fact.
I’ve just never found any other way to say it.
It's the same with cosmology or astronomy or meteorology or paleontology or any technical subject that I'm interested in. People know a little bit and then they lose interest. It's all very natural.
 

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^^^^@Luchesi: "I might be a rare person but I've never bonded with anyone over CM."

Over the years I have bonded with people over CM. With your passion for it, I am surprised that you have not. I have several times had friends tell me about something new that they just heard (and bought), and have immediately benefited by that.
I remember when I was very young some older folks were bonding over CM. But I expect was born too late, especially with the explosion of musical distractions of the 60s, and young people with their predictable imperatives taking over when they had some disposable income. This is when I was the most vulnerable. And later, none of the recommendations from Jethro Tull and ELO fans made sense to me. I quit listening to how great YES was (well, it was for them).
 

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To expand on that, I think the "ability" for one to differentiate between classical music one likes or dislikes isn't based on learnedness, it's based on what I'd generally call "affinity". This can be learned or just come naturally, but one has to like the style of music for aesthetic comparisons to really be possible - otherwise you get that classic phrase of someone who doesn't like a genre of music, be it classical, rap, electronic, or disco: "it all sounds the same to me".


If we "reject" or "discount" someone's opinion because they have no affinity towards classical music, it has nothing to do with education, knowledge, or intellectual rigor - it's because someone with zero affinity for a genre of music has placed themselves outside the generally accepted audience for that music.
The above is by no means a fact. It is just a pet theory of yours and has not been my own personal experience, nor the experience of other musicians in my family. I did not care about classical music at all until 10 years of age on the first day of school in 4th grade music class when we began learning theory (we were about to start to learn the soprano recorder). I immediately became obsessed with classical music.
The same with some of the children in my family. They never were interested in classical music until they took piano lessons or were in band/orchestra. All at a relatively late age (middle school). Now they like classical music and listen to it on their own.
 

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In regards to the topic, it makes no difference that judgments about the sound quality of a musical piece are opinions and not facts.

In science, there are hard, tangible, objective methods scientists use to identify and quantify creativity, imagination, and intelligence in subjects. Musical craftmanship is no exception. It is not necessary to even hear a single note to determine whether a musical piece was put together intelligently or creatively. The audible enjoyment factor is ancillary to its merits that are measurable.

My uncle who is an engineer often speaks of being able to tell good design from poor design in engineering. There are objective ways of identifying it. He never refers to anyone’s opinion on what it looks like. The construction of music is no different. Whether you like how it sounds or not, we can identify the merits of its craftmanship through objective means.
 

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The above is by no means a fact. It is just a pet theory of yours and has not been my own personal experience, nor the experience of other musicians in my family. I did not care about classical music at all until 10 years of age on the first day of school in 4th grade music class when we began learning theory (we were about to start to learn the soprano recorder). I immediately became obsessed with classical music.
The same with some of the children in my family. They never were interested in classical music until they took piano lessons or were in band/orchestra. All at a relatively late age (middle school). Now they like classical music and listen to it on their own.
At no point did I intend to imply that this is some sort of hard-coded, unchangeable aspect of people. Affinity can be learned through exposure, changing of tastes, or any given reason. In fact, I explicitly stated that this can be learned.
 

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The above is by no means a fact. It is just a pet theory of yours and has not been my own personal experience, nor the experience of other musicians in my family. I did not care about classical music at all until 10 years of age on the first day of school in 4th grade music class when we began learning theory (we were about to start to learn the soprano recorder). I immediately became obsessed with classical music.
The same with some of the children in my family. They never were interested in classical music until they took piano lessons or were in band/orchestra. All at a relatively late age (middle school). Now they like classical music and listen to it on their own.
Yes, there's something about when the kids see the notes and hear the sounds together while they're playing an instrument the sounds are spirited and the dots on the page are dry, very dry. It’s such a contrast in the whole experience of contrasts in the making of music. So when the kids get the experience of making the music from the dots then they want to see other performers do it so much better than they can, and then they get around to appreciating how composers compose those dot patterns.
 
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